Author Topic: This just in - pounding Iraq  (Read 3374 times)

Offline Tac

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
What can I say?

 

Its from a great webcoming, check it out www.lifeonforbez.com

[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 02-22-2001).]

Offline Fury

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« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2001, 09:54:00 PM »
"Pentagon sources say China helping Iraq"
 http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/20/china.iraq.02/index.html

Another reason why we should be having "most favored nation" relationships with China?

Fury



Offline Tac

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« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2001, 12:07:00 AM »
Heh, china is looking after its own interests... they are industrializing and need oil.. a lot of it.

US needs China's partnership... $$$$.

Gotta love politics and the liars behind it.  

Offline sshh

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« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2001, 02:29:00 AM »
pzvg wrote"

 
Quote
You want a fact? Ok try these on for size AK series of rifles, most common terrorist weapon made in Russia Semtex, most common explosive used by terrorists made in Russia RPG-7 Anti-tank weapon most common  terrorist anti-limo weapon, made in Russia

Not only Russia knows how to make this stuff. It is produced in China and many eastern european countries with license or without. Some weapons were left when Russia withdrew troops out. In fact even if it was made in Russia, there is no proof that it was sold by the goverment in official way. And Im pretty sure it was not. Claiming this is same as claim that US supplied anti-aircraft systems to Chechnya.

As far as SAM/aircrafts/tanks/... exported from Russia concerned - sure cash is almost the only reason.

     
Quote
Pray tell need I continue? You want the Chechnyans to stop blowing up toejam? let them have the independence that they're obviously willing to fight for, I don't really think you'll find them continuing the war if you do.

We did. Russia forgot that Chechnya is it's part and had enough of "peace" with Chechnya till 1999. You know what happened then ?

I would really appreciate if you share your thoughts regarding Israel and US military aid. Would you suggest Israelis "leave Palestinians alone as it it their country and they certainly willing to fight for it" ?  

     
Quote
Find another rationale for your overseas arms sales, supporting the "poor oppressed nations" became passe, maybe y'all just do it for the cold hard cash?

Can not disagree. US have largest % in this market and besides cash it is just fun to lower it a bit  


[This message has been edited by sshh (edited 02-23-2001).]

Offline pzvg

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« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2001, 06:38:00 AM »
Ok y'all win, WE ARE THE BAD GUYS! Guess that explains why so many of ya live here.
Humph, Ok, we're bad, guess we should just conquer all the weaker states, and make the strong ones glow. Keep living the pipe dream folks, label someone often enough, it tends to stick. Considering what you're labelling us as, Do you really want that?
Note; It's not a threat, last time I checked I was not in a position to make policy for the United States of America, I was, I wouldn't be the terror y'all cast us to be, but we wouldn't have a no-fly zone in Iraq either, Call us what the hell you want, I know you'll also call us whenever there's trouble, and being the ignorant,intolerant,despotic,evil that we are, naturally we'll come to your aid, unappreciated and unwanted as always, suggestion, from now on, y'all just have "European Wars" 'stead of "World Wars" we'll stay home and sell weapons to both sides, deal?

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2001, 01:12:00 PM »
Raubvogel: isn't it a good idea to visit Afghanistan now, 12 years after Evil Empire's 40th Army left it, just to see the result of the US support of the "freedom fighters"?

If there were any villages completely destroyed by VVS - pleas give me locations and time. Soviet Aviation was used mostly to interrupt weapon supply lines in Southern Afghanistan.

/*Sorry - was a bad idea to mention "napalm on villages" - I can't give you any facts too . Shame on me   */

Flakbait, my hat off for you - you and Sshh sound like the only sane people here (I definetly don't  )

The problem is that if you want to warn SAM crew, and if they are not suiciders, you just have to drop almost anything that can be tracked by a radar from your AC. When the target "separates" - it means that it launches something like Shrike or HARM, so if you want to stay alive - you'd better shut down the target illuminating station power. No need to kill anyone. And if they don't stop tracking you - just launch a real Shrike. Now it's clear that they can only blame themself and run for the bombshelters from their cabins.

Pzvg, I am 100% sure that you are a nice guy, and if we'll ever meet each other we'll have enough things to talk about w/o that political crap. But I think that the current US regime is a danger to the whole mankind. It is not your fault. I also think that the current Russian regime is no good too, being the worst combination of "animal-capitalism" and imperial ideology exploiting "neopatriotism" and "national self-understanding" to approve it's dirty deeds. Damn, a KGB "officer" as a president!

As for "running for help" - even in this thread I saw someone say that USSR fought in WWII "on American money". That's the problem: US always thinks of war as of a kind of "investment". JFYI: USSR payed every damn kopeyka for the US lend-leased aid! While US gained huge financial and political profits for each of the 20 millions of Soviet citizens who perished in a War.

Another thing to think about concerning "cultural differences": Russian Empire never discriminated people according to their national or racial origins.

To All: Sorry, just curious where else this thread can lead us  

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Offline Cabby

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« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2001, 07:17:00 PM »
Quote:

"but I think that the current US regime is a danger to the whole mankind."

Boroda, to say the US Government is a "regime" is a hoot, i.e. funny.

Please, don't project your country's past miserable governments on to that of the USA's.

The biggest "danger to mankind" are all those sorry nations that have yet to enter the 20th Century,  much the less the 21st.

Cabby

 

 
Six: "Come on Cabbyshack, let's get some!"

Offline Toad

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« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
JFYI: USSR payed every damn kopeyka for the US lend-leased aid!


Well, as of 30 June 2000 there was $155 million outstanding. It may have been big money in 1940 but it's pocket change now.  

Do you have any information that the $155 million was paid since the June 2000 rescheduling of the debt? I could find no record of further payments.

BTW, I'm not complaining about non-payment. I'm glad the US was able to help your country, during and after WW2, with food supplies and economic aid.

This statement is a bit much, however: "While US gained huge financial and political profits for each of the 20 millions of Soviet citizens who perished in a War". Bit of a reach, don't you think?

Anyway.........

 http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/fs_000301_wardebt.html


War-Related Debts of Other Countries to the U.S. Government
Fact Sheet, released by the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs
U.S. Department of State, March 1, 2000


"The case of debts arising from World War II is somewhat less complicated. At this time only four countries, discussed below, owe the U.S. government debts of any size arising from World War II programs to aid our allies. Other countries have paid their debts in full.

The United Kingdom still has amounts outstanding from World War II and its immediate aftermath which it continues to repay on a regular basis. World War II-era claims on Iran have been incorporated into the claims being adjudicated by the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal, established after the 1979 Iranian revolution. Lend Lease claims against the former Soviet Union arising from World War II were settled in a 1972 agreement between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. In the 1972 agreement, the U.S.S.R. pledged to make three initial payments totaling $48 million and to repay the remaining Lend Lease debt once the United States had granted Most Favored Nations (MFN) trade status. The Soviet Union made the three initial downpayments, but because it did not obtain MFN status at that time -- because of conditions set forth in the 1974 Trade Act -- its obligation to make the remaining payments toward its Lend Lease debt was not triggered before the dissolution of the U.S.S.R. However, MFN status was extended to the Russian Federation in 1992, and accordingly, in 1993, Russia signed an agreement with the U.S. in which it acknowledged its liability and agreed to a repayment schedule for the former U.S.S.R.'s Lend Lease debt. Finally, the U.S. continues to work for a resolution with Taiwan of the issue of debts arising from World War II-era loans extended to China."

 http://www.cnie.org/nle/inter-19.html


IB92089: Russia

Stuart D. Goldman

Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division

November 28, 2000


"On May 26, as required by law thirty days prior to its taking effect, the Administration submitted to Congress a report on a bilateral agreement with Russia to reschedule its 1999 and 2000 repayments of Soviet-era debt. While Paris Club creditors have been adverse to total forgiveness, they have favored rescheduling due to the burden the debt places on Russian efforts to reform its economy. However, Chairmen Helms and Gilman in mid-June announced they would put the agreement on "hold" due to Russian actions in Chechnya and support for Serbia. What made this move particularly significant is that, of the roughly $485 million of U.S. debt that would be rescheduled, $155 million was part of its Lend Lease debt, held from World War II. A provision of the Trade Act of 1974 requires that arrears in this debt be punished by loss of MFN (most favored nation/normal trade relations) status. Therefore, if the debt could not be rescheduled, on July 1, when payment would otherwise be due, Russia would either be forced to make the payment or stand to lose its MFN status.

On June 30, the Administration announced that it would proceed with the rescheduling, regardless of the congressional leaders' views.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

LJK Raubvogel

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2001, 07:39:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
Raubvogel: isn't it a good idea to visit Afghanistan now, 12 years after Evil Empire's 40th Army left it, just to see the result of the US support of the "freedom fighters"?

The result is that it isn't a territory of Russia   Mission accomplished.

 
Quote

Another thing to think about concerning "cultural differences": Russian Empire never discriminated people according to their national or racial origins.

No, they didn't discriminate. Everyone was equally oppressed LOL.


Offline Toad

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« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2001, 10:02:00 PM »
 http://www.comptons.com/encyclopedia/TABLES/150995309_T.html

United States Lend-Lease Act
British Empire $31,390,000,000
Soviet Union 11,100,000,000
France 3,230,000,000
China 1,557,399,993
American republics 495,410,240
The Netherlands 230,127,717
Greece 75,475,880
Belgium 148,394,457
Norway 51,524,124
Turkey 26,026,355
Yugoslavia 32,026,355
Other countries 24,787,879
Aid not charged to foreign governments 2,578,827,000

Total $50,940,000,000

Reverse Lend-Lease Aid
 
United Kingdom $5,072,102,000
Australia 835,004,000
New Zealand 204,566,000
India 639,443,000
Union of South Africa 885,000
France 795,471,000
French Africa 70,358,000
French New Caledonia 1,171,000
Belgium 191,033,983
Belgian Congo 182,000
The Netherlands 1,450,699
Dutch Curaçao and Surinam 917,000
China 3,672,000
Soviet Union 2,210,000

Total $7,818,465,682

Lot of zeros. Pretty much speaks for itself. (Reverse Lend-Lease are the items we got in return, like bases, aircraft, etc.)

Somebody with a big calculator can figure out the net.      

Wonder how much that all is/was in 2000 Dollars.

<edit> don't ya just love the net?
 http://www.orst.edu/dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2000rv.htm

1945 0.105

So $11,100,000,000/.105 = $105,714,285,714



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-25-2001).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #100 on: February 26, 2001, 05:01:00 PM »
On the subject of RADAR being switched to track...

Once a RADAR is switched to track, a missile can be launched undetected by passive detection systems (most common in fighters).  The RADAR has the ability to guide the missile all the way to the target without the missile having to fire up its own aquisition system.

That is why RADAR that goes into tracking mode is dangerous.  That is why it is destroyed.

By the way, why do you think we would respond to someone when they begin "tracking" our planes with RADAR?  I mean.. they couldn't have been testing the waters.  There wouldn't be a step that occurs after that.  Nah.. it probably woulda just ended there.

AKDejaVu

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
Toad - thanks a lot! Sorry, I didn't know this  

As for my statement - I still think this is true. The whole US politics in WWII was to weaken the countries involved in European war. The whole "Second Front" issue shows it.  USSR fought for the survival of the whole nation. And about Pacific war - you already know my opinion.

155 million you say?! Now please tell me why US claimed all the lend-leased machinery to be returned in operational condition, with all original spare-parts included, just to send all the trucks etc under the press right in the port?! Why were most of the reparations sent to the USSR delivered in unoperable conditions, so that Soviet Navy inspectors had to storm Italian ships delivered to Albanian ports so they could get them somehow able to float?

Raubvogel: Afghanistan is not a part of Tajikistan, not Russia. Russia liberated Middle Asia 130 years ago, but never claimed for Afghanistan. I think that it should be better for Afghan people to be a part of a Soviet block then to be captured by Taliban fundamentalists.

Cabby, if to "enter 21st century" is to lay down to the US - I'll prefer to stay in 20th century then to drink Coke, chew Wrigley's and listen to MTV crap. That "miserable governments" saved the world from nazism, protected Europe from drugs and finaly were the only way to save the world from corporate slavery backed up by the US nukes.

AKDejaVu, if the USAF planes can't detect missile launches - it's their problem. They were never attacked. But they still bombed Iraq. The only good thing is that they were unable to destroy Iraqi Aircraft Defence. Famous American technology is still unable to destroy a mid-50s SAM site. Nothing changed since 1986, when brand-new HARMs only slightly damaged S-200 in Lybia so it was operational after 24 hours, but Soiet side got an undamaged HARM.

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    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

LJK Raubvogel

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This just in - pounding Iraq
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:

Raubvogel: Afghanistan is not a part of Tajikistan, not Russia. Russia liberated Middle Asia 130 years ago, but never claimed for Afghanistan. I think that it should be better for Afghan people to be a part of a Soviet block then to be captured by Taliban fundamentalists.

Boroda, you continue to amaze me. I never realized before just how much crap the Russians fed their people. The key words in the above sentence are that You think it would be better for the Afghans to be part of the Soviet Union. Well, I guess the Afghans thought differently, eh?  

Quote
Cabby, if to "enter 21st century" is to lay down to the US - I'll prefer to stay in 20th century then to drink Coke, chew Wrigley's and listen to MTV crap. That "miserable governments" saved the world from nazism, protected Europe from drugs and finaly were the only way to save the world from corporate slavery backed up by the US nukes.
[/b]

Oh yes, the great savior Mother Russia protected Europe from drugs and corporate slavery. LMAO! It is really sad that you believe these things. Hasn't anyone ever told you that you might have been severely misinformed over the past years? Corporate slavery backed up by US nukes as opposed to Communist slavery backed up by Russian nukes eh? Hmm...which one should I pick hehe. I'm sure that you really believe much of what you write, and I feel sorry for you.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
 
Quote
AKDejaVu, if the USAF planes can't detect missile launches - it's their problem. They were never attacked.

I got news for ya.. Russian planes can't detect missiles launched under these conditions either.  No plane can... unless they have an active radar that is searching for SAMS.  That is why "Locking" an aircraft equates to a missile launch.  I guess its not really important that you understand this.  What is important is that the Iraq military does, and they locked the aircraft anyways.

As far as your comments in regards to American weapons... just how many US aircraft were shot down by Soviet aircraft in that conflict?  Oh.. yeah.. zero.  How many US air defense systems were destroyed by Soviet supplied weapons in that conflict?  Oh.. yeah.. zero.

As for the difference between being destroyed and being effectively shut down.. you figure out if the attack did its job.  Do you think the Iraqis were locking any NATO fighters within 24 hours?

AKDejaVu


Offline Dowding

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« Reply #104 on: February 27, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
It's such an EASY game...why don't you folks take the field for a while?

We already tried - something called the British Empire (do a search on the net for it). It had mixed results and while probably being quite good for us Brits, it might not have been so good for the rest of the world.

Spectators, you say? We had half of the world under the British Crown, and our population was a fifth of yours, sitting on an island the size of one of your states with very few natural resources. I'd say that was pretty good going.

The method of influence was probably just as acceptable/moral/ethical back then as yours is now.

I think after several centuries worth of dominance in the influence stakes, it was about time someone else had a go.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.