Author Topic: The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss  (Read 2143 times)

Offline Squire

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2006, 08:30:05 AM »
CC on Gibraltar, didnt have my map in front of me. Home Fleet on D+1, Gibraltar Med Fleet on D+2.

Yes, a lot of "what ifs"...
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Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2006, 08:31:31 AM »
That's what makes it so much fun to speculate about ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nilsen

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #77 on: August 29, 2006, 09:21:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
PARATROOPS BELONG TO AIRPOWER



OH IF YOU SEE IT LIKE THAT!

HOW COULD GERMANY EVER GET ENOUGH PARATROOPERS TO TAKE BRITAIN BY THE AIR?



hehe/he-he-he :D

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #78 on: August 29, 2006, 10:20:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
It was never the German's intent to try to occupy Britain with only planes.

 First they would seize control of the Channel....possibly faking the launch of the invasion to draw the RN into those narrow waters.  The resulting battle would have been a bloodbath for the Royal Navy.  

Secondly, the U-boats would starve the country of supplies and arms by savaging the Atlantic convoys.  

Third, the Germans would launch the invasion, possibly moving directly across the Channel, but perhaps attempting a landing at a less obvious point, as the Allies actually did during Operation Overlord.

All of which would take place after German bomber raids had rendered the British naval bases inoperable.

A combined arms operation all around.


Sorry, but this is almost all wrong.

Germany could not sieze full control of the channel because they had a huge material disadvantage in naval forces and no real prospect of achieving meaningful air superiority.

The U-boat arm was already operating at full capacity in the atlantic and the small number of escorts engaged were having little effect on the outcome. The limting factor was the small numbers of available u-boats and crews, not allied escort vessels.

The area of planned invasion is a matter of record. Germany would have landed on sites between Hythe to the east and Rottingdean to the west.

The luftwaffe could not render British naval bases inoperable because they were mostly out of range of effective fighter cover.

To take it further.

A prospective invasion had to occur in the south east of england because that was the extent of Lutwaffe single-seat fighter cover. The problem for Germany was that the channel at this point is very treacherous, with very stong currents, and sand-bars blocking otherwise prime invasion beaches. The flat-bottomed barges they intended to use would have been limited to towing at 5 knots or less, even assuming perfect weather conditions and would have been sitting targets for the large numbers of small coastal defence vessels clustered in the straits of dover, without any need for the large part of the Home Fleet to get involved. The elements of weather and sea conditions alone would have made it a very perilous undertaking even without the factors of naval and air opposition.

Air Superiority - one point that everyone seems to have missed is that even if the LW hadn't shifted target to London, it was only 11 Group of Fighter Command that was being hit, since 11 Group covered the part of the country within range of effective LW fighter cover. If the pressure on 11 Group had been maintained, Fighter Command could have fallen back to the untouched fields of 12 and 10 Groups which were outside Luftwaffe single-seater fighter range but which were still situated close enough to allow fighter cover to be launched over the channel, as well as to contest LW raids in general.

Faulty strategy on the part of the german leadership prevented an air victory for Germany: they generally still subscribed to inter-war theories of strategic bombing which focussed on the effect on public morale. Couple this with strategic discrepancies between the Luftwaffe leadership; Sperle wanting to keep hitting air defense infrastructure for example while Kesselring wanted to force the issue by bombing London into submission. No real coherent plan was the result.

There seems to be a certain misunderstanding here as to what the German strategy actually was for Operation Sealion. Erich Raeder set out four essential preconditions for an invasion to have even a chance of success. These were:

1. Elimination of the home fleet or at best rendering it unable to intervene.

2. Elimination of the RAF

3. Prevention of the RN submarine forces from intervening

4. Destruction of Coastal Defences

Point 1 was a pipe dream. the RN's main anchorages were out of range of LW fighter cover, and unescorted raids on the ports were not viable as evidenced by those attempted by Luftflotte 5 against the north of england in which the LW bombers were very roughly handled by 13 Group Fighter Command. Point 2 couldn't happen because the LW couldn't hit 10 and 12 Group's infrastructure without taking unsustainable losses, whilst 10 and 12 Groups could still contest the invasion area. Point 3 would have been difficult to realise as German anti-submarine capacity was very lacking in 1940 (even more so than the British). Little was ever done by Germany to address point 4.

Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2006, 11:13:24 AM »
Hehe, all the If's.
Nilsen, I guess you are a navy guy.
If Paratroopers (as well as aircrew) are not a part of airpower, are navy guys then not a part of Naval power?
Both are multi-role. But their main job is their main job.
Sorry mate, but I think this is a straw.

And Momus....don't get too stuck on Raeders terms. He wasn't too hot on the invasion at all, and he was a cautious guy.
Add to that equation that Hitler had already stated that the war was won.
Germany was not expecting the UK to kick much after being routed out of France.

To count some more "theoretical" things, - 5 kts crossing speed is enough to make it over the channel under the curtain of darkness.
Another point, - the Germans were not too familiar with the RAF infrastructure, - that's why the RAF was underestimated so much. 13th group for instance was mostly out of the battle (they caught the LW in their beds when they tried an attack over the north sea), and 12th group didn't really enter the fray before September. (Bader's lads).
Could the RAF have been destroyed? Well, in the perfect LW world yes, and in the perfect RAF world, LW would have lost worse. It was up for the question who would win, the LW had faced those numbers before in France and it was not much of a problem. So, here's Winnie on his last patch, letz do him....
Naval bases in the south as well as airfields could have been bombed inoperable. Some actually did get that treatment.
The channel got Luftwaffled enough for convoys to go only in the dark.
Coastal defences could not even stop the Scarnhorst - Gneisenau run-through as much as a year later.
So, it was a matter of the dice whether to launch or not.
And the daylight bombings of London BTW, almost incited a public revolt.

Still at it, I think the Jerries came very close, and might have pulled it off, but it would have been a big mess.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Momus--

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2006, 11:56:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
And Momus....don't get too stuck on Raeders terms. He wasn't too hot on the invasion at all, and he was a cautious guy.


Raeder was cautious because he knew how futile an invasion attempt was likely to be, for all the reasons given.

Quote
To count some more "theoretical" things, - 5 kts crossing speed is enough to make it over the channel under the curtain of darkness.


And that same curtain of darkness would neutralize any german air-superiority advantage. The RN was well equipped to fight a night action.

Quote
The channel got Luftwaffled enough for convoys to go only in the dark.


Yes, as doing so was a sensible precaution that saved the RAF having to protect the convoys with all the defensive disadvantage that went along with that job.  If the roles had been reversed in a german invasion the situation would have been very different.

Quote
Coastal defences could not even stop the Scarnhorst - Gneisenau run-through as much as a year later.


A one-off surprise channel dash hardly compares to the sustained operations required of a major seaborne invasion.

Quote
So, it was a matter of the dice whether to launch or not.


That might be your opinion. I don't think the OKH and the Kreigsmarine ever truly believed an invasion could succeed.

Quote
And the daylight bombings of London BTW, almost incited a public revolt.


Really? The sources I've encountered, including talking to family members who experienced the bombing first hand , indicate that civilian morale was hardened as a result of the bombing.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 12:00:59 PM by Momus-- »

Offline wooley

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2006, 12:23:33 PM »
This   is supposed to be a pretty good book on the subject (although I haven't read it yet).

I'm a big fan of the author's fictional works - 'Piece of Cake' and 'A Good Clean Fight' are highly recommended if you've never read them.

Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2006, 12:42:39 PM »
Momus, a part of London was about to rally for revolution when Buckingham palace got hit as well.

(I actually met a pilot who was intercepting that raid)

Anyway, recommended books to add are:

Clouds of fear (Roger "Sammy" Hall")
Shot down in flames (Geoffrey Page)
Wing Leader, and, Full Circle (James E Johnsson)
Fighter (Len Deighton, so use glasses)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Momus--

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #83 on: August 30, 2006, 03:14:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Momus, a part of London was about to rally for revolution when Buckingham palace got hit as well.
 


That's great. We've gone from "public revolt" to "rally". You're going to have to provide a source make a further case.

Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2006, 03:56:02 AM »
Read Time-Life's Battle of Britain, or Martin Gilbert's WW2.
Even Hitler belived that Britain could be broken by civil airraids on London.
Wan't a quote?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Momus--

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2006, 04:35:22 AM »
Well, Hitler was clearly wrong wasn't he? As was Harris later on.

If you've got the books in question then please quote the relevant section detailing the near "public revolt" that resulted from the bombing of London. We can then look at it in context and judge how close it actually came to undermining british resistance, which I think was the point you were making?

Offline Angus

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« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2006, 04:40:11 AM »
It's in Icelandic, so I will have to give you the work.
I'll find the chapter though and page, it should be close.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2006, 04:50:55 AM »
Time-Life, Battle of Britain by Leonard Mosley.
Chapter 5.
A quick translation tells one that there is a myth, that the British never gave up their spirit in the BoB.
Anyway, there was a rather lively parade, and anger was boiling within the poorer population, on top fuelled by communism.
Churchill was aware of that, - and on the 13th of September, a bomb hit Buckinham Palace. A "hush" was prepared, but Churchill saw a good opportunity and ordered that it would be published in the papers.
"Let the public of London know that they're not alone, that their king and queen share the danger"
(He had been warned that it was getting close to revolt, and indeed there had been more incidents like in Liverpool (Lootings and sabotages/vandalism))
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2006, 04:57:50 AM »
Hitler's words on the 14th of September were that the preconditions for invasion were yet not in hand, but the bombings on London should continue. "If eight million inhabitants go crazy, that can lead to catastrophe.  If we get good weather and neutralize the enemy's airforce, even a small scale invasion can work wonders"

As for that and Harris, they both had a point. Harris could not bomb Germany into submission, nor were the British bombed into submission. But reither's enemy knew how close it got.

And it did work...with the Nuke.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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The Navy (RN) Won the Battle of Britian...Discuss
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2006, 05:00:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Here are a few facts about Royal Navy losses during World War II.

These prove that the Luftwaffe's capabilities were far from mythical.  Pay close attention to the losses in the years 1939-1942, and to the losses by theater.

The Royal Navy lost heavily in the Mediterranean, and the majority of those losses were due to Luftwaffe aircraft flying out of France and Italy.  Had that trend in the Mediterranean continued, the losses would have been unsustainable.

Now, imagine the level of the losses that would have occurred in the narrow waters of the English Channel, especially in 1941 and 1942 when anti-aircraft installations on British were woefully inadequate.  Little cover for the ships of the Royal Navy could have been provided by their aircraft carriers, for they would undoubtedly have been kept out of that fray because of their vulnerability and lack of suitable high-performance aircraft at that early stage of the war.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2RN29-WarshiplossesBritish.htm
Oh dear Shuckins. Look at Crete where dispite the LW's air superiority the German sea borne invasion force was decimated (should say annililated). Was there some RN losses? Yes. The Germans had improved their anti-ship capability since BoB.

How many naval ships were lost in the convoys to Malta?

Even in Norwegian waters, prior to BoB, the LW did not sink as many naval ships as the KM did.