Remove drones from bombers

[Stoney74]

For whatever its worth, here's my take...

Last tour, I spent a lot of time trolling for bombers and developing tactics.  I've also spent some time flying bombers in tours past.  A couple of observations/opinions:

1)  We shouldn't be able to run full military for so long, but I doubt this will ever get changed.  So, I'll accept the hokie engine use...at least we can use it in the fighters as well.

2)  The robot guns on the bombers--my biggest gripe is that if my rear turret gets taken out, I can still fire the other guns from the position.  While my tail gun isn't putting rounds downrange, I can still take advantage of its incredible field of view and fire to activate the guns in the other positions, while using the sight of the tail gun.  I shouldn't be able to do that.  That screen should be all bloody or the sights immovable in my opinion.  You shouldn't be able to fire the top turret from the tail sight in other words...

3)  The formations--well, I go 50/50 on that issue.  In one way, I believe that they discourage team-play on the bomber pilot side, while increasing the need for teamwork by the interceptors.  Maybe a form shouldn't be perked, but the ENY lowered, as someone who successfully shoots down an entire form of 3 with all those guns should get more perks for staring down all those guns.  Bombers represented an incredible investment in resources, money, and especially manpower.  There's 30 aircrew in a form of B-17's.  That's a lot of casualties for the loss of 3 planes.  A B-17 in 1943 cost approx. $240,000 roughly equivalent to $2.7 million today.  If I'm flying a P-47N and shoot down 3 B-17's, I land roughly 4-5 perks for killing 30 guys, and blowing through $8.1 million dollars worth of gear.  I'm not sure that's equitable...

4)  Bombers were the offensive air weapon in the war, and are in the MA as well.  I think the destructiveness of the bombers is a bit unbalanced, as a whole.  In the war, a successful mission equated to 30% of ordnance on within the target "area"--and that's with the then uber Norden bombsite, and missions that included hundreds of bombers.  In the MA, 100% of ordnance on target is extremely easy.  And, I won't even touch the issue of level bombing CV's.  

5)  Almost everyone had much more advanced warning of impending bomber raids which allowed interceptors to be positioned to defend against them.  If we had radar that showed incoming bombers 3 or 4 sectors away (or whatever is a more accurate war-era range) it would make the whole issue much less frustrating.  

6)  Flak was the number one killer of bombers in WWII, and nothing over a base or strat matches the type of flak that you see in pictures of the big bomber raids in ETO.  Only the CV can throw up that kind of lead, which strangely enough, seems ineffective against those level bombers at 6-8K.

Its a multi-faceted issue that I happily pay HTC $15 a month to figure out for me...

[MadSquirrel]

I agree with number 1, however that works for fighters as well.

Number 2 however I disagree with.  If you can't fire all the guns from one position, how are you to fire them?  Switch from position to position?  That isn't practical.  The guns on buffs are set converge at about 800 meters.  Farther than that or shorter than that if you set your sights on a fighter, only the guns you are in will hit.  So, all the "Your buff has Laser sights" is not a valid beef.  

Number 3 humm.  More pts for shooting down a formation?  Naa.  I am GV dweeb and I can kill buffs with no problem.  And you want to give me more pts.  As has been pointed out many times in this thread, killing buffs is a cinch if your smart about it.  The only ones that seem to have problems are the ones that would rather buffs just dropped out of the air at the sight of an enemy plane.

Number 4 I tend to agree with.  Lazer Nordan bomb sights are kind of lame in my opinion.  While I wasn't great the way the sights use to be, I could hit the ground with my bombs.  Practice would cure the bomb sight issue.  

Number 5, nope.  They could also detect fighters from a greater distance.  The DAR works the way it is.  Could you imagine the whines if my GVs could detect fighters and buffs from farther out?  

Number 6, 100% whole heartedly agree.  As has been pointed out in many, many, MANY other threads, Flak needs to be changed.  Mobile and stationary Flak 88s need to be added.  The puffy ack as it is today is a joke.  Virtually useless for defense.  Set the M-3s up so they can tow the Moble 88s.  Give the 88s a 1 minute deployment time and there ya have it.  

Good Post Stoney.  What are your views on the Bomber speeds?  As has been pointed out by some field tests, the 350 speed on buffs could only be someone reading TAS which increases with altitude.  B-24s will rip apart at that speed.  

LTARsqrl  <>

[Kazaa]

Originally posted by Krusty
Okay the reason bombers have drones doesn't apply anymore. They are not this defenseless little thing that they used to be.

Last night was a PERFECT example of why bombers need drones revoked.

15K B24s were hitting a port. I'm in a TA152 flying toward them. I'm 15k as well. I'm on full WEP and I can't close into icon range until they turn around for another pass at the port. THEN I can barely keep up. I'm 1.5k out for 5+ minutes at full damn throttle, doing 350+ in a Ta152, and the bombers are as fast as I am! This is bullcrap!

Hell the B29 could barely do 350 steady! Yet every bomber in this game does well more than it  ever did in any historical mission (EVER). Add to that the fact that any 1 bomber can fire up to 7 50cal guns in any direction, then multiply it by 3 (3 planes in formation) and you get 21 guns that kill instantly.

I came up on a bomber set last night and in a spit16, unloaded directly into the wing root of a lancaster. All I did was blow his bomb bay door of (rriiiiight, suuuuure... 80+ 20mm and the only thing that comes off is the bomb bay) and in his first ping, literally his first ping he gives me a pilot wound AND rips my tail off. Lag was nonexistent.


So you have bombers that are nearly impossible to catch when flying the planes that were best able to catch them in real life. You have bombers that are 4x more lethal than normal (up to 4 gun positions firing at target at any given time), multplied times 3 planes (12 times more lethal), and you have a problem with gameplay balance.

Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.

I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.

I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.

I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.

If this were the case, WW2 would have ended in 1942 with complete bomber supremacy going to the allies.

EDIT: Hell, or even ended in 1940 with complete bomber supremacy going to the axis!!

[size=10]NO[/size] thats 3 kills mate !

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by MadSquirrel


Number 2 however I disagree with.  If you can't fire all the guns from one position, how are you to fire them?  

Good Post Stoney.  What are your views on the Bomber speeds?

First, for number 2, I only meant after a turret has been taken out.  Other than that, slay away...

As far as bomber speed goes, well TAS is a funny thing.  It increases the higher you go, while IAS decreases.  I fly the Jug on bomber hunting missions--its my primary ride.  I take it up to 28K and go >400 TAS the whole time hunting--so, no, I don't have any trouble catching bombers.  Especially if they're at 15K.  At those speeds, you can cover a sector in 3 to 4 minutes.

The lower I hunt, the less options I have for making an intercept, but I can always catch up.  Mostly because 234's are the only bomber in the game that can run >350 TAS.  My only gripe is that no one should be able to run full military for a length of time (and that's an immersion gripe, not a game play gripe since all planes reap the benefits of continuous full mil)--I'm sure there are some POH's out there that can demonstrate how long you could historically run Mil--5 minutes I've seen for some of the U.S. birds.  But, with full mil taken away, the advantage still goes to the fighters, because the difference for me in B-17's between full mil and the normal (which I consider the max continuous setting) is about 40-50mph TAS at 26K.  For the Jug at that altitude, its only a difference of about 10-20 mph TAS.  I get 242 TAS in B-17's at 26K with normal power and doors open.  Jug gives me almost 400 TAS at normal at the same altitude.  That's 160 mph of closure, which, if I do my math right, gives me over 2.5 miles a minute of closure.  That would mean I could run down a set of B-17's a sector a way in 10 minutes.  At full mil, the 17's will do around 280 true (with bomb load and doors shut) while I'm doing around 410.  So, that takes away 30 mph of closure.  I don't know what the difference is at 15K because, for me, its irrelevant.  

'Cause in a dive from 26K to 15K I've got to slip the jug hard to keep it under 550 mph TAS.  In those situations, I'm probably bringing almost 300 mph closure.  Maybe I'll do some testing to see what I can come up with.

[Dichotomy]

Originally posted by BlueJ1
It was a good idea. If worked on I think it could work.

How about...if there are more then lets say 5 bombers above 10k in a radar circle a gold star will appear in one of the corners?

ya something like that would be a nice addition.. but if the game stays the way it is I'm good with that too.   I'm still a dweebie noob to a degree so I'm not suprised or po'd at anybody but myself when I get clobbered by one.  Stalling a pony behind a formation of lancasters and 17's like I did last week can make you feel REAL stupid right before your fresh view from the tower. Not the DUMBEST death I've had so far but in the top 5

[bkbandit]

there isnt a reason for drones, i mean if u cant gun on a set of these things u need help. My first attack will flame or take a wing off and after that theres nothin but a sheet of tracers all over the sky, i mean from one gun every gun that can turn my way fires, if this isnt auto guns what is, isnt that what the b29 is supposed to have? Theres alot of times where i get a lone set and just sit 1.5 2.0k away and watch him waste all his ammo, then go and kill them. And im talking about the 15 20k bombers not the hugeing the ground bombers, those are an easy meal everytime. BUt then my favorite part is that all it takes is a one set of 20k bombers to kill a whole base. give me a break, bombers get drones then i want my k14 gun sight. If u have drones at least turn off ther auto guns, then maybe allow more then one "human" gunner. It will make a good gunner more desirable, and maybe make the demand for an escoirt fighter.... more work for me.

[Eagle Eye]

you ppl would whine if i hung you with new rope.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Krusty
I'm tellin' ya! I was doing 350TAS in a TA152 and was not closing for a long long time. I was following his dot before he came into icon range, and he only did that because he turned 180 degrees. Then I got in close but could barely do anything because he was so fast.

its impossible.

he must have been in a shallow dive.

btw a TA152 IS NOT the best plane to attack bombers at only 15k.

bombers are NOT tough, and NOT hard to shoot down.

they are only hard if you fly up there tail.

if you want it hard you maybe should look back and remember the days when there used to be team work and we'd get 40+ bombers in the air. thats tough... then you need team work to bring them down.

we've done this before... someone spoted the 40+ bombers sectors out, and setup a counter mission of 262's, 163s, 109s, 190s. probably only 20 reached the target, and less than 5 got home.

i really cant understand why fighter guys want to turn the game into a fighter only arena. you moan for a FT, when you get it, you moan about vulching and everything else.

 Bomber guys already have few targets that DO anything to the game... why ruin there game even more?

oh and B24 doing 370?

http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/b24j.html

270 seems to be the max at 15k.........

[Overlag]

Originally posted by ghi

      Something also about engine damage, everyone is flying in bombers/fighters with 100% power, full trottle without damaging the engine, This is total bs, a B17 would never make it with the eng.screaming at max rpm, from London to Hamburg without busting the engine or burning twice as much fuel

nor would any fighter.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Killjoy2
Show us you still care a little about historical simulation over arcade play.  The way buff groups are being used is rediculous.  It's a bad reflection on Aces High.

[Krusty]

I was going to let this post die, but y'all resurrected it.

Overlag, you're wrong. You say "You fighter guys" and "You moan about this" and "you moan about that" and you say "Why do you want to turn the game into a furball?" -- when none of this applies to anybody in this post or any of its replies. Don't go making generalizations that don't fit, or you open yourself up to being called a suicide porker jabo toolshedder (it doesn't matter if it fits, see the point?).

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Krusty
I was going to let this post die, but y'all resurrected it.

Overlag, you're wrong. You say "You fighter guys" and "You moan about this" and "you moan about that" and you say "Why do you want to turn the game into a furball?" -- when none of this applies to anybody in this post or any of its replies. Don't go making generalizations that don't fit, or you open yourself up to being called a suicide porker jabo toolshedder (it doesn't matter if it fits, see the point?).

krusty.. YOU are the one that are quoting figures that are IMPOSSIBLE for any AHII buff to do.

you are the one that is saying bombers shouldnt be able to fly at max power....why not? you can.

it takes 4 maybe 5 minutes to climb to 15k in a 109. It takes over 15minutes in most bombers.





and you kill them fine anyway..... why is there a problem?

[Latrobe]

bombers are the easiest thing to shoot down in the game...even easier than a la7 shootin dwn a spit whos going 150 mph. You just die if u get right on the buffs 6 and try to kill it you have to come in directly from the sides, below or right from above

[hitech]

Krusty you might wish to check our plane charts, no way a b24 does 350 mph at 15k its top speed is 275 at 15k

B24

HiTech

[bkbandit]

well a single b24 isnt a soft target, u guys sayin its easy to kill bombers u must be killing sleepy bombers or attacking in a pack, once they see u nothin but tracers are in the sky, dont attack there six, who in there right mind does, i take every angle i could think of... theres no soft spot on them because if i knew i wouldnt say anything. I mean there life is too easy, i mean i dont remember the last time i seen a bomber being hit by flack....it went from being a solid defense to fireworks. Single bombers encourages more team work, more missions, now we need more gunners and more escorts, people need to learn how to fly in formation...... in a nutshell more team work, not single bombers floating around porkin everything insight. Makeing the game more fighter oriented? im not trying to do that, but why should the bomber guys get a easier deal then the fighters, u guys get drones so fighters should get outside views or the green bomb sight, but we dont. I siad it before single bombers need escorts, there aint no better feeling then protecting ur bomber from take off to landing, again more team work, i dont think more team work is a bad thing, but i could be wrong. Either no more drones, no more auto guns, or perk the drones.