Test pilots and recorded numbers - differing data

[Krusty]

I've been wondering about this for a while. Supposedly our Ta152H-1 is based off of the historical numbers. Only when the allies ran across some H-1s and sent them back for flight analysis, the results were different.

Our Ta152 does about 1500 FPM climb without WEP. It does about 3000 FPM with WEP. BIG difference for such a little power boost. (Those numbers might be off by a couple hundred fpm, but the ratio's about right, I'm going from memory)..

Okay, but when they allies got ahold of one of these 152H-1s after the war they tested it. They didn't have any of the MW or other boost liquids. As one pilot put it they flew it "dry". Here it was reported to climb (without MW50 or any boost liquds) competitively with a spit 20*! A spit20 does about 5,000 FPM.

*It was a recon version. 21? 22? Once, when I remembered which it was I asked about it. It was a late ware monster spit, but a photo recon version.


So why can a test pilot fly the thing and say it was a good climber (without WEP) and yet even with WEP it's mediocre at best climb in the other set of  test data?

How can these numbers be so far off? All pilots that flew it did so with ease. One Ta152 pilot encountered a large number of Soviet fighters (LA7s if I recall) and ended up killing 4 in a single fight before returning home.

In AH this thing is freakin' dog meat for any plane that's not 10,000 feet straight below it.


So how can this ultimate fighter that, by most individual accounts, is a total monster of a plane, perform so poorly on the flight tests that HTC used to model it in AH?

It just doesn't make any sense.

[Bronk]

Once again hard data please.



Bronk


Edit : I ask only so i can make AH comparison.

[Krusty]

It was not a statement. It was a question.

How can one set of "hard data" (the info HTC used, and can be found in stats for the H-1 on the internet) conflict so badly with the actual pilots that flew the plane saying "it did so much more"?

That is the question.

If pilots that flew the ta152 mixed it up in tight dogfights with Tempests and La7s (both very capable) then how can it be that this thing can barely turn around?

If flight tests listed it as "competitive in climb" (without WEP) to a spit20-something , how can it be that its best climb in the hard data is much much much less?

Edit: I've been thinking about this for a while, I did some checking a long while back when I wanted to do some Ta152 skins. I don't know if I still have a few of the webpages linked anymore. The story of the tempest fight and the LA7 fight is here on the forums somewhere. Two different stories.

[Bronk]

Krusty, while I tend to agree the Ta is under-modeled ... I don't want to use cherry picked LW fanboi data either.
I do however believe HT needs to look at the Ta flight model.
I find it hard to believe an AC with such large wings has such a crummy climb.

Bronk

Edit: A did a quick search for Junkers Jumo 213e .

1,725 hp available at take off
2,020 hp with MW50

If others have other data please post.

[mussie]

As a boom and zoom fighter the TA F*&Cking Rocks...

Last time I flew one the only reason I got taken out is I cut my zoom short to assist another pilot who was in BIG trouble....

[Krusty]

Found one link telling the tale of the Ta/Tempest fight. I read another that was longer, more descriptive. The other one I read told of how one pilot was pulling tight circles, and he held the trigger on his guns then they suddenly all stopped firing, so he kept turning and turning until finally the tempest dipped a wing and crashed into the trees.

Linky linky

[Bronk]

Krusty it's still anecdotal , pilot skill is in question.

 Like I said put me in a zeke and levi in a spit ....

He will out turn me I might just last a bit longer.


Bronk

Edit: From the link.

Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground

Easy handling you say???

[Krusty]

Originally posted by JB73
in a book on LW fighters i have at home (written by americans i believe) there is an account of a ta152 in a dogfight with a tempest (yeha i know not a spit 14)

the fight was at tree top level, both pilots were scared of clipping a wing on high pines.

the ta152 owned the tempest supposedly in every manuever, flat turn, roll, climb, speed, everything.

IIRC the tempest pilot was a good stick, some veteran with a bunch of kills, but got caught.

just ym thoughts

From the same thread, more accurate I think:

Originally posted by Nashwan

Reschke's account:

So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.

Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.

The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.

Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.

Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us." [/B]

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Bronk
Krusty it's still anecdotal , pilot skill is in question.

 Like I said put me in a zeke and levi in a spit ....

He will out turn me I might just last a bit longer.


Bronk

Edit: From the link.
 

Easy handling you say???

There's a difference between having a fight between a spit and a zero and saying "it was close but I out turned him" and saying "I never even came close to the full turn rate for my aircraft".

As for the crash they attribute that to pilot error or some major malfunction. I believe it. That late in the war they had major maintenance problems. Reschke is reported to have chased down a Mossie but lost it because his supercharger failed in mid flight. Imagine if the entire engine just died mid flight and you were under 50m alt. I'd imagine you'd plunge in too.

[Bronk]

The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.

Now were some controls cut ?
 Did he have full deflection?

That's why you cant use anecdotal evidence.




Bronk

[Krusty]

Before he ever fired a shot he said "ever increasing" circles. That's a prolonged turn fight before anything is fired (no damage).

What do you get when 2 planes are tested by the same side? the same thing: Planes seeing if they can out turn each other in flat turns. I think it's a very strong indicator. It's qualitative data, not quantitative. I think AH needs a bit of this.

[Bruno]

Reschke tells about his combat in Ta-152s in his own words, in his own book.

Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wild Sau"
In defense of the Reich
with the Bf 109, Fw 190 and Ta 152.
By Willi Reschke

I posted this before in another thread:

Why do we have worthless equipment?

[ANECDOTE ALERT]

Here's what Reschke writes about the Ta-152 in his book (p 21, chapter nine, 'Into action with the Ta-152'):

My initial impressions:

Acceleration was so great on take-off that one's body was pressed against the back of the seat.

The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.

Initial climb rate was enormous.

I had never flown an aircraft with such a tremendous wingspan.

Control forces appeared to be good.

All-round view from and freedom of movement in the cockpit were also good.

The landing speed was rather lower and thus unfamiliar.

First Impressions of the Ta 152...

...Even when taxiing one got a sense of the tremendous power produced by the Jumo 213 E. Pushing the throttle forward resulted in tremendous acceleration which pressed one hard against the seat back. The force was such that pilots were hesistant to apply full power for the first few take-offs. The aircraft lifted off effortlessly at 210 km/h after a short take-off run. One scarcely noticed the retraction of the undercarriage and flaps. This was a big difference from other versions of the Fw 190, which sagged noticeably when the flaps were raised. The enormous thrust of the propeller with its broad 60cm blades and the great wingspan were positively noticeable. Rate of climb was 17.5 m/s to a height of 5,000 meters. It took twelve minutes to reach a height of 10,000 meters, which was equivalent to an average rate of climb of 14.2 m/s.

...At an altitude of 10,000 meters the Ta 152 reacted perfectly to control inputs, by comparison at that height the Fw 190A-8 was already unstable and reacted rather sluggishly to control inputs. Not until a height of 12,000 meters did one feel the that the limit of performance of had been reached.

During the conversion program comparison flights were carried out with the Gruppe's remaining Fw 190A-8s, with mock combats playing a prominent role. This provided an opportunity to test the performance capabilities of the Ta 152 and to see if this aircraft was really as good as was claimed. These mock combats repeatedly showed that the Ta 152 was much superior in a dogfight. Especially at heights from 6,000 to 8,000 meters, where most fighter combat took place, one had the impression that the Ta 152 could turn on the spot.

The Tempest was known as a very fast aircraft, with which the English had been able to catch and shoot down the V 1. In this engagement, however, speed played a less important role: at low level an aircraft's maneuverability was more important. As I approached, my opponent pulled up from a low level attack and I attacked out of a left hand turn.

Both pilots realized that this was a fight to the finish, and from the outset both used every tactical and piloting ploy in an attempt to gain an advantage. At that height neither could afford to make a mistake, and for the first time I was able to see what the Ta 152 could really do.

Twisting and turning, never more then 50 meters above the ground, I closed range on the Tempest. At no time did I get the feeling that my machine had reached the limit of its performance. The tempest pilot quite understandably had to undertake risky maneuvers to avoid a fatal burst from my guns. As my Ta 152 closed in on the Tempest, I could see it was on the verge of rolling the other way: an indication that it could not turn any tighter. The first burst from my guns struck the Tempest in the rear fuselage and tail. The Tempest pilot reacted by immediately flicking his aircraft into a right-hand turn, which increased my advantage even further. There was no escape for the Tempest now. I pressed the firing buttons again, but my guns remained silent. Recharging the them did no good: my guns refused to fire even a single shot. I can't remember whom I cursed at that moment. Luckily the Tempest pilot was unaware of my bad luck, for he had already had a sample. He continued to twist and turn, and I positioned my Ta 152 so that he always had a view pf my machines belly. Then came the moment when the Tempest went into a high-speed stall: it rolled left and crashed into a wood. This combat was certainly unique, having been played out at heights which were often just 10 meters above the trees and rooftops. Throughout I never had the feeling that my Ta 152 had reached its performance limit, instead it reacted to the slightest input control, even though we were practically at ground level.

Reschke also recounts combat over / near Berlin with Yak-9s. Reschke was able to out maneuver them and get behind them. He shot number 4 down. 2 Yak-9s escaped while Reschke engaged number one and shot it down as well stating: 'his Yak 9 was hopelessly inferior to my Ta 152'. This was Reschke's last combat of the war.

[/ANECDOTE ALERT]

You don't model a game based on anecdotes. If you feel the Ta-152 is wrong then produce something tangible that shows that. It will require a bit more research then a 'google search'...

FYI:

I can get considerably better climb rates then the 1500fpm and 3000fpm claimed by Krusty. He must be using 'auto-climb' at default speed.

[Bronk]

Krusty we are going to have to disagree.

We don't know the how it went down . We have one side of it because the other pilot is dead.
Did the Ta have alt advantage .
Was the temp exp tech issues.
Was the temp pilot long time vet.
I can go on.. but you will come up with more anecdotal evidence to back it up.

[SIZE=8]AND[/SIZE]

I believe HT said he wont use anecdotal  evidence.

Have fun tilting with windmills.

Since your stuck on this I'll leave you to it.





Bronk

[Krusty]

The auto climb at default speed is by HTCs definition the best constant climb rate. We're not talking zoom climbs, we're talking steady climbs.

HTC sets it at the best speed to produce lift and to pull the plane up by its prop. HT once said it was a mathematical function and they just set each plane's default to the best speed for it.

Climbing on anything other than default auto speed will not climb as fast. This is evident by setting the speed higher and lower and watching the climb rate drop above or below the default speed.

[Bronk]

Bruno
Would you happen to have any links for data on this AC?


Bronk