Author Topic: The French & the American Revolution  (Read 784 times)

Offline Toad

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The French & the American Revolution
« on: August 25, 2006, 11:02:17 PM »
The evidence is still overwhelming that without French money, soldiers and naval assets, the British would have successfully put down the American rebellion.

If you think otherwise, I offer you a few links to study:

FRANCE IN THE REVOLUTION

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On May 10, 1781, the Concorde reached Newport, bringing Rochambeau's son and the Comte de Barras, who was to succeed Ternay in command of the French fleet. The intelligence conveyed was of the highest moment, for it brought a reply to the requests which Washington and Rochambeau had sent to France after their conference at Hartford.

In some respects the answer was not wholly satisfactory; the ten thousand French troops that had been asked for were not to be sent, and it was announced that the second division, which Rochambeau had so long expected, would never set sail. These were discouraging announcements; but the aid now given, and the still more valuable assistance that was promised, atoned for any disappointments.

Six million livres were brought to Washington, that he might sustain his troops in the field; and such were their needs that, without this assistance, it is doubtful if even the small army which Washington then commanded could have been kept under arms.


The French Contribution

...From the outbreak of armed rebellion in 1775, many in France sympathized with the colonists. Young, idealistic French officers like the Marquis de Lafayette volunteered their services and in many cases their personal wealth to help equip, train and lead the fledgling Continental army. The French government hoped to redress the balance of power that resulted from the French humiliation in the Seven Years Wars, which gave considerable economic and military advantages to Britain. While maintaining formal neutrality, France assisted in supplying arms, uniforms and other military supplies to the American colonists....

...Benjamin Franklin, who had gone to Paris as ambassador in 1776, was able to negotiate a Treaty of Amity and Commerce and a Treaty of Alliance with France. From this point, French support became increasingly significant. The French extended considerable financial support to the Congressional forces. France also supplied vital military arms and supplies, and loaned money to pay for their purchase.

French military aid was also a decisive factor in the American victory. French land and sea forces fought on the side of the American colonists against the British. At the same time, British and French (and to a lesser extent, Dutch and Spanish) forces fought for colonial wealth and empire around the world. From 1778 through 1783 -- two years after the defeat of Cornwallis at Yorktown -- French forces fought the British in the West Indies, Africa and India


http://www.sarfrance.net/home/h'5e.htm



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Historians have estimated the overall cost of the War to the Royal French budget at 1 500 millions livres - about € five billions - (Florin Aftalion -L'économie de la Révolution Française - Hachette 1987).


Without French soliders, without French ships and ESPECIALLY without French money... the Americans would have lost.

It is simply undeniable.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 11:06:07 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2006, 11:14:20 PM »
I can deny it, I can deny it all day long.

Sure the french gave us some money, but that hardly means anything.

Sure they stepped in.  But the war was already won by the time they did anything.



The only thing the french really did for us, was hire a Prussian Officer to teach us how to beat the British.
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline nirvana

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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2006, 11:18:34 PM »
And the Yankee's were making all their own weapons at this time right?  Kill a Brit, take his gun maybe.
Who are you to wave your finger?

Offline eagl

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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2006, 11:21:33 PM »
I read a report somewhere that without oxygen, everyone would die.  It's completely undeniable too, but some people still insist...
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2006, 12:33:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by nirvana
And the Yankee's were making all their own weapons at this time right?  Kill a Brit, take his gun maybe.


"Of the 300,000 muskets used by American line troops during the Revolutionary War, in excess of 80,000 were the products of America’s some 2,500 to 3,000 scattered gunsmiths using mixed components."

source
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2006, 07:45:31 AM »
In terms of accuracy and reliability, the firearms produced in the colonies were fully the equal of, if not superior to, anything made anywhere in the world.

While French aid was invaluable, it is mere supposition to state that "without this assistance, it is doubtful if even the small army which Washington then commanded could have been kept under arms."

The truth is, Washington had managed to maintain his army in the field for six years before the French entered the war, thank you.

The truth of the matter is, the British military was over-extended even before the French entered the conflict.  These forces were committed to defending a vast network of colonies scattered all over the world.  The British might have withdrawn forces from India or the Far East or the Mediterranean, but this would have left their colonial assets and trade routes vulnerable.

In addition, the Americans had already inflicted significant defeats on the British at Saratoga, in the Ohio River Valley, and American privateers were causing severe losses to the British merchant fleet.

By 1780, the British were finding it increasingly difficult to operate at large in the American countryside.  Americans had perfected the art of insurgent warfare and guerilla tactics.  Washinton's forces had gained greatly in military discipline and tactics, due in large part to the training instilled in them by foreign officers such as Baron von Steuben, the real father of the American army.  The argument could be made that, after von Steuben cursed the American troops into shape at Valley Forge, that the Continental Army was never again in danger of dissolution.

It wasn't the French that inflicted murderous casualties upon the British at Saratoga, Cowpens, King's Mountain, and Guilford Courthouse.  The difficulty in running American armies to earth is one of the main reasons that Sir Henry Clinton was content to maintain control of New York City.  And perhaps the only commanders to produce original tactical thoughts on either side of the war were Daniel Morgan and Benedict Arnold.  In contrast, it was only with great difficulty that Washington and Lafayette managed to persuade the dullard Rochambeau to join them in a joint campaign against Corwallis at Yorktown.

The most significant contribution that the French brought to the struggle was its fleet.  The appearance of de Grasse' fleet at Yorktown sealed Cornwallis' fate, and led to the surrender of one-fourth of the British forces in North America.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2006, 08:35:16 AM »
Shoot Toad, don't even have to think about it.  The British were kicking butt and taking names during the Revolutionary War.  We're lucky we won that war.   The British walked away from us to deal with other concerns.  Otherwise we would have lost.  This is pretty much accepted history.




Les

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2006, 09:10:49 AM »
I think the threat of the french "piling on" was of more use than the actual support.   The brits may have been arrogant and cruel but they were not completly stupid.   They could see what a mess it might turn into.

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2006, 09:27:12 AM »
Yeah, the British really kicked butt at Saratoga didn't they.

That was a first class military victory and demonstrated what American regular forces and militia could accomplish when properly led.  Credit for this victory belongs not to General Gates, but to his subordinates Benedict Arnold and Daniel Morgan.

Burgoyne's army suffered heavy casualties and was forced to surrender.   Prior to that, the army of St. Leger, marching eastward from the Great Lakes to support Burgoyne, were roughly handled and retreated back into Canada.

Tsk...what would we have done there without French support?

Offline lukster

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2006, 09:32:05 AM »
The best part is that the French have been regretting it ever since. ;)

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2006, 09:42:14 AM »
One of the tragedies of the American Revolution and the alliance with France that it spawned was the hopes for democratic reform that it engendered in patriots such as Lafayette.

Such men as he carried the idea of reform back to France with them, and inspired large numbers of Frenchmen with their tales of Freedom and Equality.  

Yet the French Revolution, when it came, got everything wrong.  With no external enemy to blame for their troubles, the French ended up declaring war on themselves, and they lost.  The resulting bloodbath ultimately saw the French people shedding the rule of one dictator...only to end up marching eagerly into the arms of another, a Corsican egomaniac.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2006, 04:08:11 PM »
Shuckins are you sure to know French history ?

Offline mietla

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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2006, 04:16:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Shuckins are you sure to know French history ?


I think it was about the cake. Am I right?

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2006, 05:07:48 PM »
Well Straffo, let's see if I missed anything, shall we?

Moderate reformers in France, such as Lafayette, were members of the Third Estate.  When Louis XVI called for a meeting of the Estates-General in 1789 to address the financial problems of the country, the representatives of the Third Estate, which made up the largest socio-economic class in the country, being inspired in part by the example of the democratic movement in the U.S., and resentful of being marginalized by the nobility and the clergy, demanded a greater say in the making of national policy.

Being rebuffed by the king, they boycotted the Estates-General, and met to swear the famous Tennis Court Oath, which was the opening event of the French Revolution.

Any problems so far?

Ok...The moderates became known as the Girondists.  The Jacobins were more radical.  The two collaborated in bringing down the reign of Louis XVI and forming the Constituent Assembly.  Louis XVI, suspected of plotting to collaborate with foreign powers to bring down the Revolution, was executed.

Thus France shed itself of its "dictator."

Later the Jacobins wrested control of the government away from the Girondists and instituted the reign of Terror, led by Robespierre.  Both Royalists and moderate Jacobins were to be executed by the tens of thousands.

The French declaring war on the French.

After a decate of violence and bloodshed, the French were eager to embrace someone who could restore order and give it victory over its foreign enemies.

Enter the Corsican egomaniac...Napoleon Bonaparte...whose meteoric rise to "emperor" saw the return of the French government to the control of a dictator.

A very short summary of a very complex event I will admit.  Yet it sorta captures the "spirit" of the times, don't you think?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2006, 05:10:35 PM by Shuckins »

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2006, 09:29:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Yeah, the British really kicked butt at Saratoga didn't they.

That was a first class military victory and demonstrated what American regular forces and militia could accomplish when properly led.  Credit for this victory belongs not to General Gates, but to his subordinates Benedict Arnold and Daniel Morgan.

Burgoyne's army suffered heavy casualties and was forced to surrender.   Prior to that, the army of St. Leger, marching eastward from the Great Lakes to support Burgoyne, were roughly handled and retreated back into Canada.

Tsk...what would we have done there without French support?


Please... While we did win at saratoga, it wasn't because we were better.  It happened because a US sharpshooter ripped the ranking british general's head off at 400 yards with a brilliant Hail-Mary shot.  The chaos ensuing was because of power grabs by some people, while others refused to step up.

We won at saratoga because the british officer corps failed.
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8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"