How do you do a rolling scissors?

[Samalpar]

What steps do you take to perform a rolling scissors on a plane thats behind you.

Do you throttle down? Do you use flaps?

Also, is p47n a good plane to do this with and what is the best plane at performing a rolling scissors?

[Vudak]

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184939

Here's a recent thread with an animation of what it should look like, to get you started.

[Samalpar]

Thanks alot. If anyone has any pointers, please feel free to post.

[FBplmmr]

i know "running with scissors" ....."rolling scissors" ..  eh not so much:(

[Samalpar]

Actualy, after reading that post , I did not mean the rolling scissors.

Whats the manuver when someone goes left, then right and makes you over shoot.

Thats the one I want to learn how to do.

[Samalpar]

and sry for the confusion.

[hubsonfire]

How do you do a rolling scissors?

Poorly.

[TequilaChaser]

quick answer/explanation - it is not someone goes left-someone goes right..it is you do a break turn and reverse / roll back in behind them,  unless you are refering to the flat Scissors maneuver.

flat scissors - the defender times his roll/break turn to make opponent over shoot rolls opposite direction  while the attacking plane is trying to play catch up rolls in direction of defender and the defender is rolling back opposite direction of the attacker--- hence the flat scissors beginning.......

you can find more thorough & detailed write-ups at  http://www.netaces.org and/or at simHQ.com also.......

if you need help ask one of the helpful Trainers or if anyone can help you in the Training Arena

or email the Trainers list at

trainers(at)flyaceshigh.com

[Tilt]

Originally posted by Samalpar
Actualy, after reading that post , I did not mean the rolling scissors.

Whats the manuver when someone goes left, then right and makes you over shoot.

Thats the one I want to learn how to do.

Flat scissors or just scissors. As above the object of all types of scissors manouvre is to force your opponent to over shoot. By over shoot this may be whereby you actually roll in behind him for a snap shot or actually roll in to saddle up (pat your self on the back ) or it may just mean that you have sufficient lateral separation and angle to move to a more aggressive attacking manouvre  from say a 12/12.

If your ac has greater roll speed than the (close) bogie chasing you flat scissors can be used to create the latter. You risk giving him snap shots but a bit of (downward)vertical manouvre during your rollout and break may drop you under his nose and out of guns. A 270 roll can help here especially if your sure he is going to follow your roll............. but dont be predictable ......mix 90's and 270's this stops him high yo yo ing while you bleed e .

Ideally time your rolls so he cannot use a superior turn rate to regain guns.... so as soon as he finishes his roll you start the next counter roll (remember lag when watching him...what you see him do he has already done)

This is classic FW defence the two key skills required are practiced precision high speed rolling (full js deflection to arrive at the exact finish point every time) and the ability to fly looking backwards.

You can use flat scissors with an ac with superior turn rate but why bother when rolling scissors will(should) never even give him a snap shot? Well the reason is that rolling scissors is not an easy manouvre to do well and when done wrong you can end up plum in his sights. Actually when using rate of turn in differing directions to gain angle you are really conducting a series of break turns. Ie you are no longer entering the turn quicker than your opponent you are now actually turning harder.

As described above in a rolling scissors you are both using rate of turn and rate of steady roll to prescribe a horizontal helix whilst maintaining good air speed but slow net forward movement. Bogie must either follow via a lag manouvre or lead and risk over shoot or total loss of angle and e.

In the MA I rarely see full and sustained rolling scissors........... I find them difficult my self (but then I have poor acm).

Very common in the MA is the beginnings of a rolling scissor followed by a chandelle (Russian combat turn). Here the defender quickly trades air speed to take the helix into the vertical such that bogies over shoot puts the defender behind and above bogie. The defender has to have good near stall control over his ac and instinctive choice of best angle as he comes out of the manouvre............... however if well executed the out come is very aggressive. Its classic full flaps stuff. If bogie has traded e in any attempt to "cut the corner" via rate of turn he may quickly find himself defending against this manouvre. (not to be confused with a climb turn)

[mojo7]

First you wait untill the nme is close ,then turn your engine off as you jerk your joystick rapidly left and right.
After the nme plane overshoots, turn engine back on while flying in tight circles.
After doing this for awhile you should have a 50-50 chance to shoot at the nme's 6 or 12 o'clock.
Don't forget to salute.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Tilt
Flat scissors or just scissors.

G'Morning Tilt,  nice explanation......

I must apologize for my quick hasty reply from last night, Samalpar.

I only mentioned Flat Scissors, because Samalpar mentioned you break left other guy goes right, hence flying level with the horizon, I pictured it as a Flat Scissors....or your basic Scissors in other words....

someone mentioned flying/maneuvering to the other pilots actions ( possibly in the other post Samalpar posted in the Training/Help Forum), I agree with this except you must not think you are reacting /maneuvering in a defensive nature, you actually are the one leading the attacker in to your actions and are switching it up as you watch him react to your PRIOR maneuver, not you reacting to him.......


Samalpar, you can easily find threads on these boards by doing a thread topic search, using the search function.....just type in keywords like Scissors, defending the BnZ, or Rolling Scissors, etc.........even Barrel Roll defense or Hi-YoYo etc......

you will find most of the thread topics you find will be in the Training & Help Forum.......

Skuzzy, you might want to merge these 2 topics together to the one with Flat Scissors in the name, in the Training Forum.....just a thought

~S~

[FiLtH]

Keeping a guy centered in your desired view, slowly getting him to be in your gunsight view is about the only way I can describe stuff.

[Sketch]

Here are a few links from a search on here:
Badboy's Tutorial
and the link on AH BB's

A quick on from B@tfink and the link on the AH BB's

Those are just two that I found.  I think B@tfink did an actual tutorial clip with a Hog with the trails on and such and actually pausing the film, rotating and such explaining it all.  Thank god my grandmother is English... I was able to understand him!

[Grayeagle]

just a note:

WW2 aircraft don't have the excess power available to do a sustained rolling scissors unless it's a sharp downward spiral.

The whole idea of the maneuver is to enable a faster plane to stay fairly close behind a slower one. The faster plane does this by traveling further and attempting to remain behind his target. It looks like a corkscrew with the axis of rotation the flight path of the target if done right.

If the target out front decides to slow even further ..by doing his own corkscrew rolling manuever .. the rolling scissors developes fully.

Timing is everything ..and it's very easy to blow it

Don't do it against a Zeke on yer 6 if yer in an FW.. unless the zeke just isnt payin attention or has lost you altogether.

-GE

[Samalpar]

I just want to say that Todd realy helped me out here.

He messaged me ingame, and offered to take me to the training area.

I took up on it immediately.

I cant tell you how much of a help it was for someone to take their time like that and show you step by step what your trying to do.

Not only that, he is a excellent teacher.

The manuver has come in handy already, and knowing what to do against it has as well.

Does this guy work as a trainer for AH2?? Because if he does you guys have your selves straight.

THX AGAIN TODD!