I don't like this Election situation. There's no good way out.

[Karnak]

We are either going to seat a President who didn't win the vote or there is going to be a revote.  I don't like either.

If Gore is seated it will be because of a hand count, a revote or the absentee ballots from Israel.  I'm only comfortable with the absentee ballots from Israel doing it, and I think those have probably already been counted.  A hand count or a revote in Palm Beach sets a record precedent that I really don't want to see.
Seating Gore in this manner would lower us to the level of Dictatorships who hold elections and then order revotes when they don't like the results.  They would be able to say "If America can do it then so can I."

If Bush is seated he will be seated despite losing the popular election and only winning the Electoral College because of a bad ballot.  There are 22,000 votes in Palm Beach that were meant for Gore.  The only people who don't believe that are so partisan that their views can be safly dismissed.  Keep in mind that while I say this, if it had been Gore on top with many straight Republican tickets being voted, except for President which went to Nader I would be absolutely certain that Bush was the rightful winner.
Seating Bush in these circumstances would lower us to the level of a Banana Republic.  We would be the inspiration to all phony elections.  They would be able to say "America allows tainted ballots to decide their highest office, we can rig ours to favor my side."  They would say that even though ours has not been intentionally rigged.

I don't like Bush's casual disregard for our most important right either.  His dismissal of the rights of the voters in Florida to vote for their choice.  He said "They had their chance".  If he disagrees with doing a recount, he should explain the legal reasons behind that opinion (and there are valid legal reasons to feel that way) not casually disenfranchise thousands of voters.
BTW, the reason this matters now and not in '96 is because it didn't matter in '96.  Whichever way the miscast ballots went, Clinton would still be re-elected.

I don't like Gore's backing of the legal proceedings.  The courts should not decide this, but they probably will.  It won't be the first time, but its bad for them to do so.

Basically we have Bush who is afraid to let the people have their choice and Gore who will try anything to get elected.

Blech.  I feel queasy.

Sisu
-Karnak

[1776]

I am sure all those ballots were really Bush voters!!!  And I have clear and concise proof!!!

Please show me your proof that all these votes were really meant for Gore!!

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:


I don't like Bush's casual disregard for our most important right either.  His dismissal of the rights of the voters in Florida to vote for their choice.  He said "They had their chance".
Basically we have Bush who is afraid to let the people have their choice and Gore who will try anything to get elected.

Blech.  I feel queasy.

Sisu
-Karnak

Why should we give a second chance?  Could not the media then have manipulated the 2nd vote already?  Keep in mind, it was a Democrat that created the ballot, and a Democratic commitee that gave APPROVAL to the ballot BEFORE election day, why is it NOW that they cry FOUL? Hmmm????

FYI stuff below:
 

According to some Florida Democrats, the particular
              layout of ballots in Palm Beach was confusing to
              voters, and resulted in mistaken votes for Buchanan
              which were actually intended for Gore. The Florida
              judiciary has already addressed the issue of
              post-election claims about ballot confusion, and the
              precedent is unfavorable to those who want the
              election overturned.

              In the September 10, 1974, Republican primary in
              Pinellas County, several losing candidates brought a
              post-election suit against county election officials.
              (Pinellas sits on the Gulf Coast, and includes St.
              Petersburg.)

              At issue was the longest ballot in Pinellas County
              history. To save space so that every candidate and
              issue could fit on the voting machine, the election
              officials had created a ballot on which the list of
              candidates for some offices appeared on two lines. In a
              particular race, for example, the first three candidates,
              listed alphabetically, appeared on one line, and the last
              two candidates, alphabetically, appeared on the next
              line.

              A lawsuit demanding a new election was filed by
              candidates who appeared on the lower line and lost.
              The Florida trial court agreed. But on October 15,
              1974, the Second District Court of Appeal unanimously
              overturned the trial judge, and let the original election
              stand. (Nelson v. Robinson, 301 So.2d 508, Fla. Ct.
              App. 2d Dist., 1974.)

              The Court of Appeal explained:

              Keeping in mind that we are talking about a claim
              made after an election, and not one which may have
              been enforceable before, if a candidate appears on the
              ballot in such a position that he can be found by the
              voters upon a responsible study of the ballot, then such
              voters have been afforded a full, free and open
              opportunity to make their choice for or against that
              particular candidate; and the candidate himself has no
              constitutional right to a particular spot on the ballot
              which might make the voters' choice easier. His
              constitutional rights in the matter end when his name is
              placed on the ballot. Thereafter, the right is in the
              voters to have a fair and reasonable opportunity to find
              it; and as to this, it has been observed that the
              constitution intended that a voter search for the name of
              the candidate of his choice and to express his of the
              candidate of his choice without regard to others on the
              ballot. Furthermore, it assumes his ability to read and
              his intelligence to indicate his choice with the degree
              of care commensurate with the solemnity of the
              occasion.

              The Court of Appeal also cited a U.S. Supreme Court
              case in which the high Court explicitly and
              unanimously affirmed a Pennsylvania federal court
              which had ruled that an unfavorable location on the
              ballot was not a form of unconstitutional discrimination
              against a candidate. (Gilhool v. Chairman & Com'rs.,
              Philadelphia Co. Bd. of Elec., 306 F.Supp. 1202
              (E.D.Pa.1969), affluffied 397 U.S. 147 (1970).)

              In Palm Beach this year, the ballot form was approved
              beforehand by Democratic Supervisor of Elections
              Theresa LePore. This fact relates directly to the
              Florida Court of Appeal's point that "it has often been
              held that one who does not avail himself of the
              opportunity to object to irregularities in the ballot prior
              to the election may not object to them after."

             

[Eagler]

"His dismissal of the rights of the voters in Florida to vote for their choice. He said "They had their chance". If he disagrees with doing a recount, he should explain the legal reasons behind that opinion (and there are valid legal reasons to feel that way) not casually disenfranchise thousands of voters."

He doesn't fear a recount, that's the constitution. A re-vote is absurd. Error are made on both sides every election. You can't keep trying until one or the other get's the results they want. By next Friday, after the absentee palls are counted, it's over. Who ever wins, at that point it's over. This "legal" crap is doing nothing but dividing the nation. Something the democrats excel at....

Eagler
 

[Karnak]

Ripsnort,
I agree.  Thats why I said there is no good way out of this.

BTW, there were complaints about the ballot before the election took place.  This is from today's New York Times.

Eagler,
Oops.  I mis-typed.  I meant to say "If he disagrees with doing a hand count, he should explain the legal reasons behind that opinion (and there are valid legal reasons to feel that way) not casually disenfranchise thousands of voters.

I am trying to be neutral here.

The only person who has raised my opinion of himself, is Buchanan.  My opinion of Bush and Gore is going down.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Ripsnort]

Karnak, we do agree on this, both parties, regardless who gets in, is going to have a tough time at it...

Do you think that those who haven't voted in the past now feel like their votes WILL count in future elections?  MY GOD, this may have  been the best thing to ever happen to this country, getting people  off their butts and get out there, review the issues AND VOTE!

[Udie]

 This is how revolutions and civil wars get started    I've had felt many emotions over the last 2 days including anger, fear, sadness and enragement.  Enragement is starting to take hold and I don't like it.  19,000 people fluffied up bad and that's not my fault.  I asked the lady that gave me my ballot where is the whole for Bush.  I wanted to make sure I voted right because I knew I only got 1 chance.  They blew there chance, it suck, I'm sorry but that's the LAW PERIOD.

 If they get another vote then damnit I better get one too. Gore should get his minions back to washington and let the people of florida settle this.  People could end up dead over something like this.   Bill Daily says "everybody needs to stay calm"  FREAKING HIPOCRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  He's the one that started stirring this pot.  Notice he hasn't mentioned the "confusing ballot" after it was noticed that his county used the same kind of ballot.  

 This is the darkest moment in our nation's history, in my lifetime anyway.  I don't see much good that can come out of this now.  Except maybe people will start paying more attention when and who they vote for.
 

  Anyway it's time for one of these 2 men to do something "presidential" ..........

Udie

[Karnak]

Ripsnort,
You said it.

For the rest of our lives, if anybody claims that their vote doesn't matter we get to slap them.  Verbally if not phsically.

Udie,
I've heard reports that in Florida the volunteers are not allow to point out which hole to punch for your candidate.  Others are saying that they didn't feel that they could take the time because it was so busy.  I don't know if either is true, but I don't think any of us have all of the facts about what happened down there.  Its a bad situation no matter how you turn it.  Or "Spin" it (this is politics after all).

Sisu
-Karnak

[miko2d]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
His dismissal of the rights of the voters in Florida to vote for their choice. He said "They had their chance".  If he disagrees with doing a recount, he should explain the legal reasons behind that opinion (and there are valid legal reasons to feel that way) not casually disenfranchise thousands of voters.

 Karnak,
 With all due respect, your post is a  blatant lie. You state that he just said "They had their chance" and then neither he not his spokespersons uttered a word in the last few days.
 That is not true.
 He and his designated spokespersons and his legal advisors have been trying to justify this statement.
 If you only caught this statement from him on TV, it does not mean that he goes mute once you turn it off.

 In any case, why would you want to hear Bush's to explanation? We have experts in constitutional law that are much better prepared for that then any presidential candidate.

miko

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by Udie:
This is how revolutions and civil wars get started    I've had felt many emotions over the last 2 days including anger, fear, sadness and enragement.  Enragement is starting to take hold and I don't like it.  19,000 people fluffied up bad and that's not my fault.  

I just heard the 19,000 ballot story is bogus. It was originally reported that these ballots did not count, story I just heard was that these 19k ballots were the ballots redone by voters who made a mistake on their 1st ballot, went and got another from the polling officials and submitted the corrected one before they left the polling centers. The news story stated that there isn't 19k gore votes in the trash somewhere. Has anyone else heard this?
Can anyone confirm this story?

Eagler

[Toad]

Karnak, I agree with almost all of what you have said.

I take issue with this part:

"If Bush is seated he will be seated despite losing the popular election and only winning the Electoral College because of a bad ballot. There are 22,000 votes in Palm Beach that were meant for Gore. The only people who don't believe that are so partisan that their views can be safly dismissed."

I absolutely do not view myself as a Republican. I voted Bush in this election strictly based on my opinion of which candidate would be more likely to appoint Supreme Court Justices that I might support.

As far as the entire rest of the campaign, I veiwed them as Tweedledum and Tweedledee. They are both professional politicians, both professional liars, neither a bit better than the other.

That being said, there is ABSOLUTELY no way to confirm your statement. Ballots are NOT identified by voter, so we will never know exactly who mismarked their ballot even if we could ask every voter. We wouldn't be able to tell if someone was lying. We wouldn't be able to tell who had "changed their mind".

In any event, I feel that a vote is just one of those things in life you have to do right the first time.

You walk into that booth with the full knowledge that you can't vote, deposit your ballot and then leave and come back 30 minutes or a day or a week later and say "hey, wait a minute...I made a goof!"

You can make an error on a ballot and request another ballot while you are still there. The officials will come give you another one and DESTROY your old one. One man, one vote.

All of these things are things a responsible voter finds out or knows before he votes.

To allow Florida or even a particular county to re-vote will set a precedent that, IMHO, will basically destroy our system.

To me it's like saying in 2004, 49 states will vote on the 1st Tuesday of November. California will observe the results and vote on the 3rd Tuesday of November.

It just isn't right.



[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Karnak]

Toad,
I don't think that there should be a revote.

The way you ID the way they intended to go (not that I think this should be used to determine the outcome, as a matter of fact I very strongly oppose it) is to look at the votes on those ballots.

Most of them are straight Democratic tickets with a swerve hard right to vote for Buchanan.

Eagler,
If what you say is true, then a hand count shoulf just reveal Bush to be the winner.  If that is the case, why is he afraid of it?

I think that we are looking at an illegitimate President regardless of who wins.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 11-10-2000).]

[Eagler]

New Mexico to close to call !!
Seems voting corruption is surfacing everywhere today.

Eagler

[Karnak]

Eagler,
I don't think there is any corruption in the problem in Florida and from what I've read there isn't any in New Mexico either.  Just possible mistakes.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
Eagler,
I don't think there is any corruption in the problem in Florida and from what I've read there isn't any in New Mexico either.  Just possible mistakes.

Sisu
-Karnak

It's open for interpretation. I'd like to believe as you Karnak but my basic distrust of gores group prevents me. <S>

Eagler