This place is so screwed ......

[Shuckins]

Sparks,

In regard to the programs on TV that you mentioned which tell you how you are supposed to act when someone breaks into your home, specifically what do they tell you that your options are?

Over the last several months I have seen several statements in gun-control or violence threads on these bbs which related stories of people who had used deadly force to defend themselves at home and had been arrested by the police and/or successfully sued by their attackers.

I started a thread about this subject (Fight or Flight) in which I asked the question "Are modern governments quelling the most basic of instincts...that of self-defense?"  It was my contention that we are rapidly being programmed to believe that flight is the only viable option.

When I mentioned the previous incidents cited by some posters in other threads about people in the UK being prosecuted for defending themselves, I got several different responses.  One responder posted a link to a cite which had the "official" government line on this, which stated that the home owner had the right, under law, to defend themselves in their home.  It has been my experience that there is often a big gap between the "official policy" and "working policy."  Another poster accused me of pulling those examples of prosecuted homeowners out of my arse.

So...my question to you is...what's YOUR take on this?  As a UK citizen, is there a gap between official policy and official actions?

Regards, Shuckins

[lazs2]

The bad part is that many of the girly men Americans here long for an America that looks more like england.

The blue areas would love to have english law and english socialism.

People on this board know that if you want to live like a man you need to get out of the blue areas.... Live in the red.   Live away from the sardine people and their insane socialism.

People are best in small doses.   The anonymous blue drone people are ruining the world.  

Giving women the vote didn't help either.

lazs

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by rpm
Bingo. Sounds just like New York, Philly, D.C., Chicago, Detroit, L.A., Atlanta, Houston, St. Louis, Phoenix, Dallas, or Boston.

But without the Muslims.

[Gunthr]

I'm pretty ignorant about what it is like in England.  It sounds like some place where the people allowed bullies to take over.   Is that really true?  My impression has always been the English are tough in a clinch.  What is going on here?

[Nashwan]

In regard to the programs on TV that you mentioned which tell you how you are supposed to act when someone breaks into your home, specifically what do they tell you that your options are?

I'd like to know that as well, and what the programme was.

Over the last several months I have seen several statements in gun-control or violence threads on these bbs which related stories of people who had used deadly force to defend themselves at home and had been arrested by the police and/or successfully sued by their attackers.

Can you give some examples?

It has been my experience that there is often a big gap between the "official policy" and "working policy."

I'd say the biggest difference is between the facts of the cases and the way they are spun. As a very quick example, Carl Lindsay, who was convicted of manslaughter for "defending his home" after a "burglary". That was how the press presented it. The truth was Lindsay was a drug dealer, he got into dispute with other drug dealers, who were either trying to rob him or take over his "patch", he chased them out of his home and repeteadly stabbed one of them in the back as he ran away.

[Sparks]

I knew the flames would come but I'll respond anyway....

So Trikky

£50 an hour to work on your Volvo is moral bankruptcy? My heart bleeds…

Nice piece of creative cut and pasting but actually it's £60 per hour at current exchange rates (maths again ..) and that example was merely an indicator of the general cost of living.

Your uncle died in Italy fighting tyranny and defending democracy, my great uncle stepped on a mine at al alamein doing the same. However distasteful you find it, they died so anti-gun lobbyists and muslim pressure groups can do what they do, so that youths can have free association.

Yes they did die to protect freedom, including freedom of speech; but they also died to defend their country and its democracy. The democracy that our labour government has so expertly rendered useless by 1). adjusting the ward boundaries 2).  Absolving ultimate legislative power to the European parliament.  Is any labour government here really going to address problems rooted firmly in its voter heartland - I think not - and you want to change the government ?? Just do some research on voter percentage swings to see what it will take.

Don’t like it then do something about it yourself instead emigrating. Instead of using your free education to exclusively further your own career,...

.  My free grammar school education (not university) - you mean - the one my parents taxes paid for - the one provided by school teachers like my mother and father - that one ?  And the career I have built by hard work from the shop floor doing 60 - 80 hours per week for the last 27 years - that one ??

become a part time community police officer, do voluntary work with young offenders, victim support, join the pro-gun lobby, labour/conservative/liberal democrats/independent party.

Ah yes, the good old "get into the community and do your bit" arguement.  So I'm paying 40% rate income tax and then paying 17.5% sales tax out of what's left to fund our wonderous public services just so I can have the priviledge of walking, unarmed, round our streets dealing with violent youth in my spare time because they can't afford enough regular police because they have pissed the money up the wall.  Tell you what - let me keep what I earn, let me keep a weapon and then I'll defend my streets.
Voluntary work with young offenders ? How about we spend our good tax money on real education so they have enough brain cells to get a job and have some self respect ??
This wonderful idea that I should provide the services we are supposedly paying for as charitable work - fine - give me my tax back.

And if you don't think the government wants to control all this - well the fine Mr Blair now wants social service intervention on problem children as pre-birth ??

Join environmental pressure groups if you don’t like what’s happening to the countryside.

I never said I don't like what's happenning to the countryside. The countryside is the last shrinking santuary of sanity and my refuge.  

Ah yes but of course our marvellous Mr Prescott wants to build 200,000 houses through this fine countryside from Stansted to Peterborough in a continuous band to house our rapidly expanding population (of largely labour voters).

It’s all there waiting for you. It’s not perfect, wont always get results but that’s democracy. Or you could take the money and run, and post your thoughts on moral bankruptcy online from the Rovers Return pub on the Costa del sol.

Oh yes it's waiting for me but it's not democracy and that's the bit you don't see. Democracy would mean my vote would mean something, which it doesn't. Freedom of speech would mean I could stand up and say the Islamic religion is changing the face of our country for ever, and not be branded a racist; but I can't. Individual freedom would mean I could feel safe in my home knowing I could defend it and my family without fear of being a criminal, but I can't.
And as far as that money I would take ?? You mean the money I have worked for and earned[/i] and saved despite the best attempts of the government to remove as much of it as possible.

You would like to paint me as a freeloading state sponger who has made his easy fortune and is complaing about the gravy train stopping. I have done nothing but pay in to this society since I left school at 18, all the time saying " I will be responsible for myself" and all the time having more taken away from me in power and money so that other people can legislate what I have to do to be "responsible". Well their plans have failed.

Gunthr / Shuckins - as I undertsand the law if someone enter my house and attacks ME personally I have the right to defend myself. HOWEVER if I was to go to bed with a baseball bat next to the bed and then use it in said situation that would then be a crime as I had prepared a weapon with intent to harm. ALSO if I find someone in my house stealing my DVD player I am not allowed to use force; I must ask them to leave and if they don't I call the police - only if they approach me and I fear for my safety am I allowed to use force  otherwise they are protected and can stick up two fingers and walk out with my DVD player.  I will defer to any UK lawyers if this understanding is wrong.

Toad -

Sparks... take the money and run HERE.

We need guys like you.

Just settle in the outlands; you'll like it!

I have looked into it in detail but getting a VISA is impossible.  I have no degree so I would have to come in on a H2 which is basically so difficult to fullfil the requirements as to be impossible. Having a degree would make it easier but only slightly.  Wanted to go to Washington / Oregon find a small avionics shop somewhere and park.

Just as an example - typical headline stories from the local paper:-

Stabbing

Fly tipping

**US readers Note - this is not "Big City" - this is a provincial city of 155,000 **

[Geeb 2]

http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/methamphetamine.html This and other CHEMICALS, EXTREMISIM,lack of PRIDE in ones work. Just a general LAID BACK approach to dealing with DRUGGIES, AND CRIMINALS. Careful we don't want to HURT them. The MEDIA will go crazy with this.

[Dowding]

Woe is me. The terrible life of a Daily Mail reader.

It's very easy to say things were better 50 years ago - especially if you weren't actually there. Some people look fondly on the war years, but they weren't exactly a barrel of laughs - it is human to forget the bad and concentrate on the good.

Britain isn't a bad place to live. It has its pros and cons like any other country. Problems exist - but point me in the direction of a country that is perfect and I'll call you a liar. For instance, I woke up this morning and looked out over countryside that was there the night before, so perhaps things aren't sliding as much as you think.

Fuel prices are high? They are high everywhere - something to do with what is happening in the Middle East. I know the oil companies bleat about taxation and claim negligible profit margins, but I'd like to see how they apportioned their fixed costs in those calculations. It's possible they could be attributing all refinery fixed costs to petrol production, which is a little unfair.

As for the EU, you are plain wrong. Legislative power has not been transferred - we still retain a veto and we can pull out of the EU at any time - that right is maintained.

Emmigration has been affected in recent years by the softening of intra-EU labour law, which allows people inside the EU to work around the union much easier. People I know working for large companies have moved to France, Spain, Poland etc because it is much easier to do so. I see this as a positive aspect of the EU, not a negative one.

Your arguments on self-defence are not neccessarily in keeping with reality. I was reading about a case where a householder had stabbed a burglar to death inside his own home and had not been convicted of any crime. That doesn't really tally with your picture of householder rights. And, by the way, I'm a gun control proponent but would allow private gun ownership with registration.

And finally I must take issue with this:

Freedom of speech would mean I could stand up and say the Islamic religion is changing the face of our country for ever, and not be branded a racist; but I can't.

Internally or externally? I disagree with the former completely - my local mosque doesn't actually exist and I live within 500 yards of two churches.

What you are mistaking is being allowed to say something and not been agreed with, and a restriction of freedom of speech. There lies the distinction.

So, to sum up, let me point you in the direction of some like minded individuals:

Daily Mail Forum - only Peter Hitchen fans need apply

[Nashwan]

Fuel prices are high? They are high everywhere - something to do with what is happening in the Middle East. I know the oil companies bleat about taxation and claim negligible profit margins, but I'd like to see how they apportioned their fixed costs in those calculations. It's possible they could be attributing all refinery fixed costs to petrol production, which is a little unfair.

They are so high because of tax.

The tax on a litre of petrol in the UK is made up of 47.1p fixed duty, and VAT on top. So at 90p a litre, the government is taking 60.5p. This excludes taxes on oil company profits and oil production, it's just the tax on petrol sales.

[storch]

you guys went and derailed a perfectly good gun and bash thread.  what is wrong with this board lately?  

[Ghosth]

Fargo North Dakota, last monday, guy was selling drugs in front of a McDonalds.
A passerby phoned it in to the local cops, guy was arrested 5 min later with a large amount of cash, a lot of small vials of white powder, and a big attitude. Ie he did NOT cooperate.

Week before, 2 blacks robbed a small town bank. Father talking to his son about it on a cell phone hears the car description as the same car goes flying by him on the interstate. He calls highway patrol, 5 min later both black men in custody.

This is where it starts, when you see something WRONG you get involved.
Hopefully safely, within the system, but you don't just turn your back on it.
You don't leave, you don't spaz out and shoot someone. Just keep your eyes open and be willing to make a call.

Not really any different than our AH community. Get INVOLVED!

[lukster]

Originally posted by Dowding
As for the EU, you are plain wrong. Legislative power has not been transferred - we still retain a veto and we can pull out of the EU at any time - that right is maintained.

I think there were a few states in the US that thought the same thing, until they tried it. Give it 10-20 years. Once your economies are more entwined some may see dissolution as an act of war.

[Toad]

Fargo.

What would have happened if the same calls were made in DC or any megaopolis where the police force is pretty much already overwhelmed by events?

I agree it's a fine thing but I think the success of both calls has a lot to do with the location. Low density population had a lot to do with both of these. For example, I imagine the interstate in NoDak is not quite as crowded as the roads around DC.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Sixpence
And there is the problem, we run away. When we feel a town has become a bad place to live, we pack up and move.

Even the cops, but they are starting to enforce that law now. If you are a police officer in a city, you are supposed to reside there. The thought being that they would care about the community and do their job, not just drive around and collect a paycheck.

I'll admit it myself, I used to live in lynn, ma., but the city had really gone down the pooper, so we moved to Saugus.

We have the power, if we really wanted, to clean it up, but we duck responsibility and take the easy way, just move.

Someday there will be no where left to go

Ever read about "white flight"? or "land banking"?, very interesting stuff given the culture of political correctness... white folk, like me, say all the right things to sound like we're hip, on the tolerance bandwagon... then promptly move far away when "they" become our neighbors.

Then the real estate land-banking begins, 'they' move in more minorities, thanks to US Govt Section 8 contracts, to drive housing prices down and motive whitey to sell before local property values hit rock bottom, of course offering to buy the old home and find em a new one. Next thing you know the old neighborhood looks a whole lot different.

As far as cops living in the areas they patrol, no fing way, not 1 officer from my Dept lived in the city for 1 main reason; you don't crap where you eat. Imagine standing in line at the local store with your kids and running into that special cholo family that hates your guts with a passion for tossing his dad in prison. One of my former partners got jumped, and in an off duty shooting, while hanging out with some hood rat townie, the locals knew he went there and waited. Imagine living there and going home each night wondering if so and so dirtbag will follow up on his threat to kill you.

Not only that, if your neighbors know you're a local cop they won't call the police if they have a problem, they'll knock on your door.. I went to an LAPD officers funeral for just that reason.

Thats exactly why I lived 35 miles away.

[Sparks]

My my, the labeling of me without knowledge continues .....

Actually I'm a Telegraph reader but not that it matters.

Actually it isn't a case of "woe is me" but a case of "woe is my country" and I never refered to life being better in the war years - actually I specifically said I can see the difference within my own lifetime - but that wouldn't sit right with your stereotyping now would it ?

Also I nowhere stated there is a perfect country - the USA for instance has it's good points but the healthcare situation is dire - a critical failing. I have actually lived and worked in quite a few places and seen the good, bad and ugly. My point is we had a pretty good thing here and sucessive governments have sold it down the river.

For instance, I woke up this morning and looked out over countryside that was there the night before, so perhaps things aren't sliding as much as you think.

So because the view out of your window hasn't changed overnight all is right with the world and any change that is happening can't be that bad?! - How far sighted of you, I can rest easy now.

Fuel prices are high? They are high everywhere ...

Well actually they're not. In California for instance which is the highest priced US state it is half our price.  Taxation is the difference.  Oh and the oil companies are actaully making record profits.

As for the EU, you are plain wrong. Legislative power has not been transferred - we still retain a veto and we can pull out of the EU at any time - that right is maintained.

Now you are dreaming .... our courts have to continually consider the judgements of the European court and many many times our courts have been over-ruled by the European court.  Legislation is set to European standards.  And you REALLY believe we can just pull out of the EU at any time now ?? The polls already show a majority of the population being anti-Europe hence the lack of a Referendum on the Euro and yet still our politicians push the pro-Euro stance.

Emmigration has been affected in recent years by the softening of intra-EU labour law, which allows people inside the EU to work around the union much easier. People I know working for large companies have moved to France, Spain, Poland etc because it is much easier to do so. I see this as a positive aspect of the EU, not a negative one.

Oh it's positive for the minority of UK workers who find high paid managerial work on the continent but very negative for all our low paid workers here who find there jobs being taken here by Eastern European workers who come to take minimum wage or cash under the counter.  Peterborough's population has gone past 160,000 for the first time this year and it is due to an inflow of migrant workers to the tune of 5-10,000.  Current estimates are that this figure will be 20,000 in this city alone in 5 years.

Show me the a case where a burglar who has not attacked the property owner prior to the owner using force has been killed / injured without the property owner facing charges .....

Because the face of Islam is not on your doorstep yet does not mean it isn't happenning.  The influence of Islam and the pandering to political correctnes is spreading not-so-slowly through this city. I drive along one of our main town roads and from  the neighbourhood which used to be railway workers and engineering factory workers houses now towers two of the largest mosque domes in the country - and we are now seeing the political power associated with those institutions appearing in the city council.

Mine isn't a view that I have created after drinking 1/2 a bottle of port and reading Churchill speeches. It is what I see with my own eyes and which has been even more evident to me having had extended periods out of country.  You can parade and trumpet your political correctness and enlightened view but it would seem many others are agreeing with my view - remember emmigration is at all time high levels and it is the skilled and educated who are leaving.  If you are happy with falling education standards, high cost of living, low wages, high crime rates, poor healthcare, eroded democracy, high taxes and no personal responsibilty then good for you - it's your bed......