Author Topic: #'s are nuts (Read 1432 times)

doobs · « **on:** September 02, 2006, 11:44:52 AM »

Frame 3, 59 more pilots on the allied then axis, the axis were winning after two frames even with being outnumbered. To lose the entire event in frame three because of this is very disheartening.

And the way I see it was the allied max number was 151, and the axis was at 147. I believe the axis whould be given about 30 more than the allied side to try and keep a balance in future events.

skernsk · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2006, 12:31:25 PM »

Numbers were not the only reason for the problems on the Axis side?

Who was the Frame CO? Why did the Admin write the orders up?

We got to our objective after it was already under attack.

Numbers are a big problem, but in my opinion that is something the squads need to deal with. I was always unwilling to give the Axis side a big numbers advantage because knowing my luck if I give them 30 more pilots it would be THEN that they decide to all show up and then you have the Allied side upset.

It was set 50-50, squads need to look at their numbers and adjust, or do a better job motivating their players to show up when playing Axis. My squad would prefer Allied, but understand that for FSO to work you have to be willing to fly Axis, and if you choose not to show up then, you are simply hurting the event. Looking at the logs, there are a few squads who obviously do not have the same attitude when flying Axis.

EDIT -

I looked at the numbers and 2 Allied squads were over in numbers, 3 Axis squads were low in numbers. Furthermore, the remianing Allied squads were at or near the high end of commited numbers while the remaining Axis squads were at the low end of numbers.

How do you fix that?

ghostdancer · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2006, 12:41:54 PM »

I agree with both positions to an extent. When I was an admin CM I didn't like (and would be opposed to setting a mandatory rule) that the Axis side always were given a 15 to 30 pilot advantage just in case the Axis numbers didn't turn out.

There were many cases were the Axis side did turnout in force.

That said though the CMs did in the past switch squads from one to another to balance the next frame if the numbers were to far out of wack.

Frame 1
Allies = 133 (allies up by 37 pilots)
Axis = 96

Frame 2
Allies = 137 (allies up by 32 pilots)
Axis = 105

Frame 3
Allies = 146 (allies up by 60 pilots)
Axis = 86
[/list]

The allies had a consistent 30+ pilot advantage in turnout in frame 1 and 2. I think it would have been reasonable to have shifted an allied squad to Axis squad (I think the 327th volunteered in another thread). That would probably have balanced the numbers since we had a 2 frame trend of poor turnout on the Axis side.

Now as for frame 3 .. wow really bad turnout out. However I think the extra 30 pilots that didn't show was do to the original Axis CiC no being able to get the orders out and the CMs having to step in at the last minute to get them out. In past FSOs anytimes the orders get out the day of the event the numbers are bad for that side and there is confusion in executing the orders for that side.

So I agree with both previous comments in other threads that a squad should have been switched after frame 2. And I also agree with Skernsk that there were also other mitigating reasons for the massive number discrepancy in frame 3 among the Axis. Plus, I really tried my best on the Allied side to get our pilots to turn out and encourage the Allied COs / XOs to get a good turnout which also probably help spike the allied numbers up by an additional 10 pilots over frame 1 and frame 2.

skernsk · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2006, 12:48:14 PM »

Good post GD.

I simply wanted to put it out there that numbers should never really be a problem as long as squad CO's are managing their squad and participants are willing to show up regardless of the side they are on.

As a CM dealing with numbers is aggravating and just one more reason not to want to do the job.

Getting the orders out is also not the CM's job. It happens far too often. If you want FSO to be strong each player has a responsibility. Nobody expects 100% attendance, but i'd bet several of those 60 missing players from the Axis could be found in the MA durnig FSO ....

ghostdancer · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2006, 12:56:05 PM »

Oh, I agree that numbers are first the job of the squads turning out players. Then if the numbers are still out of whack but resulting from one side turning out on their low side and the other side maxing out then the CMs need to evaluate and switch squads from one side to another.

I think frame 3 just happened to be the perfect storm for the Axis:

[list=1]

Several axis squads turning out under their minimum minus two numbers
Axis orders not being sent out until Friday
Axis CiC missing so that another person had to step in at the last minute to run the Axis battle plan
Allied squads on average turning out ther maximum plus two numbers
Allied CiC putting a 4 sheep bounty on Daddog's head to encourage Allied pilots turnout. Well maybe not that.

skernsk · « **Reply #5 on:** September 02, 2006, 01:00:21 PM »

The frame was a success for the Mongrels because one of the dogs killed Ghostdancer.

Now is the time to discuss the problem.

We have switched squads before, that is one solution. Any other ideas? There are a couple hundred participants so I will wait for some other input:D

doobs · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2006, 01:12:49 PM »

we had 15 on and it would of been 17, if knucks wasn't setup CM and I didn't get T-boned on the way home last night.

and I tried to help get the axis ords out, but Jebus didn't know he was going to have to make an FSO plans till he recieved the objective's.

And I think he found a bit overwhelming.

Mr. I had 16 on:p

not fair you edited you edit.

skernsk · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2006, 01:23:56 PM »

I did edit my edit doobs as after I read it I correctly decided it was unfair to post that. I apologize, as I had hoped I got to it before anybody read it. Even my squad was at the low end of numbers last frame upon looking closely at each squad.

As for the Frame CO, I do not know who it was supposed to be as I don't look at that unless I am in charge of the FSO. The statement GD made that when orders are late turnout is bad is spot on. I simply wanted all to know this especially Frame CO's.

doobs · « **Reply #8 on:** September 02, 2006, 01:26:24 PM »

yeah but when you edit your edit it makes me edit , but now my edit makes ya wonder why I was editimg in response to your edit .

edit

skernsk · « **Reply #9 on:** September 02, 2006, 01:28:48 PM »

LOL! Or, we can simply ~~and move on. Now, about them numbers .. .ideas folks lets have some:cool:~~

ghostdancer · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2006, 04:12:47 PM »

Okay you wanted ideas. Some are new some are not and were used previously:

[list=1]

CMs evaluate and switch squads from one side to another during the run of an FSO to even things out. What size squad needs to be switched is a judgement call. In the past we actually had times where after frame 1 a squad was switched and then after frame 2 another squad was switched.
Make sure all the squads on a side know the objectives for their side not just the frame CiC. That way they can plan and rally their troops before getting exact orders from the CiC since they have a rough idea of what is expect of their side. Also it is easier for a non-CM to step in and come up with a plan if a CiC goes mising, and less confusion for the squads since they have days of being familiar with the objectives instead of hours.
Designate a 4 CiC. The job of the 4 CiC is to be the backup guy for all 3 frames. If a CiC goes missing or can't do it the 4 CiC steps in and picks up the frame. I would pick somebody that is know to be very reliable and willing to play back up for all 3 frames. It shouldn't be an extra strain on the person because he is only there to step in if things fall through.
Either the 4 CiC or we can ask another person from a team / side to play "cheerleader." By this I mean to get people pumped up and planning for the event via Emails. The more communications happens during the evet the more involved COs and XOs are. Even if they just read emails and don't respond they feel more apart of a team, are better informd and can d a better job of getting their pilots interested in flying on Friday night. It is very hard to lock down people to fly the day before or the day of an event. Touching base with them several times during the week does result in better turnout. The CiC is busy with creating the plan the Cheerleader or Proganda Officer ;) basically is just saying okay guys we need a great turn out to stick it to the other side. Or anybody have ideas on how to best attack JU88s? Or what do you think of using Bostons as pickets? The whole job of the person would be to engate the other COs and XOs via email to think about the FSO before the day of the event or the day get their exact orders so they can start getting pumped up over the event and feel like a team.
Between FSOs as Daddog pointed out if a squad is under performing (not making their min, etc.) they need to be talked to by the CMs about what is going on and confirmed that they can will make their numbers, reduce their numbers, or if need be cut from the FSO if they just have vanished or something along those lines.
Let all squads know that if previous turn outs from previous FSOs show that while you claim or want to field 7-10 that you are really turning out 4 on average that a CM can over rule your committment level and lower it based on actual previous turnouts. Obviously the CMs would first talk to a squad before doing this to explain their reasoning and let the squad communicate with them and say yes that is for the best or no this time I have these people coming so I am sure I can hit that higher level.

96Delta · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2006, 09:59:37 PM »

I came...
I bombed...
I conquered...

Allied opposition was little more than an
annoyance to me. I had fun.

But on a serious point. The overall numbers don't
tell the whole story. Its how those forces are
deployed that really matters. Sure, it would be nice
if we started off even but that isn't very historic
is it? Being the underdogs this FSO didn't bother
me a bit. When we kick a numerically superior
opponent it just gives us bigger bragging rights.

A superior plan with inferior numbers will always
triumph over an inferior plan with superior numbers.

So don't get worked up over this numbers stuff.
Did ya'll have a good time? Enough said.

~~David "96Delta"~~

1ijac · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2006, 12:05:17 PM »

I don't know why Axis always seems to be lacking in numbers. I don't think it is weighted heavily because it is Axis instead of Allied. My squad, the Pigstompers, fly with the 68 Lightnening Lancers as the 347th. Usually, we have a good turnout for FSO because we communicate the week before. We post in our private forums, and are constantly trying to let the fellas know that we need them there. Heck, minutes before the event we are in the main arena looking for our squaddies who have forgotten or are just too lazy. We also try to have everyone there early. I know things come up and pilots can't make the event, but many times they just forget. I really think the reason for the 347th usual good turnout is because we work at it. The reason for our pilots not to show is not because we would be flying axis or allies at all. There are times when we are in allied planes that were inferior to the axis rides. We have flown both sides.

I think the CMs should take a look at squads who make commitments for numbers and adjust those levels accordingly if it's a reoccurring problem. I know this is a pre-registered event (squad) but if someone can come in say 15 minutes before and be placed with one of the pre-registered squads, then it might boost numbers a bit. Just a thought there.

I think the main reason is that communication is not at it's best.

Let's all not forget why we all fly in FSO anyways. To have fun!!

one-eye

ghostdancer · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2006, 01:02:39 PM »

Oh and as pre-registered event I think the squads have forgotten one thing that is acceptable. That is if you max it is fine to ask the other squads on your side to take your overflow instead of telling your extra pilots sorry we are maxed you can't fly.

The CMs had found this acceptable because the people were not walk ons at all and new the battle plans and rules of the event .. and helped the other squads that a low turnout on a night.

Case in point 327th Maxed on on Frame 3. Kool came over to me and asked if I had any room for his overflow? We did so I took two of his guys in and they flew with us.

Other squads who are really good at turning out players should remember that if you max you can ask the others on your sides to take your overflow. Its a win win situation for your pilots and for other squads whose numbers are low during a night.

Nomde · « **Reply #14 on:** September 04, 2006, 12:41:10 PM »

Hi Gents
I confess the 56th was one of the allied squads which surpassed our numbers.

I had no idea we'd have this many players actually showing for this event. We're listed for 7-10 players, normally lucky to reach 7 players, and typically only have 5.

Given this, I thought we're normally low and this time we're high - so screw it. Well, that's flawed thinking and it won't happen intentionally on our part again.

My apologise to all