Author Topic: So Much "Fuzzy Logic" Coming from the Libs...  (Read 2591 times)

Offline Nash

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So Much "Fuzzy Logic" Coming from the Libs...
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2000, 05:57:00 PM »
Kieren, you seemed to imply that my posts were without merit as I'm an "outsider". You said I seem to just want to poke and jab. You implied that I was joking about politics.
You also are seeming to take my position personally, which is unfortunate.

I didn't "solicit" your opinions, but I appreciate them, in any form. And I'm happy to hear that you are not stopping me from posting.

"You know the primary purpose of the office of president? To make sure laws are carried out."

Exactly. Any attempt to scuttle the process in Florida runs counter to that.

Cabby - excellent quote.


Offline PC

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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2000, 06:28:00 PM »
Nash, just which process do you count? The first count, the second count or the third, fourth? Just where will you give your Canadian opinion that's it's all over and just???

PC

Offline Toad

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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2000, 06:52:00 PM »
Exactly, PC.

What do we do when, in the future, the inevitable challenges arise again?

The precedent is now set. The credibility of the entire system has been called into question and we can never go back. Nixon, for all his many faults, was at least smart enough to realize that in 1960.

So, if candidate A wins the first machine ballot by 1,000, wins the second machine recount by 850, wins the third machine recount by 750, wins the fourth HAND recount by 50 and loses the last HAND recount by 1 vote......

Then we give it to Candidate B, correct?

I believe the correct way to do this would have been to count ALL votes first...including the absentee....then do the recounts if necessary.

The machine counts were implemented for speed and to remove "bias." Now, apparently Hand count is less susceptible to bias.

Sort of like a week ago when the popular vote was deemed less important than the Electoral College vote. Now suddenly the popular vote is way more important than the Electoral College vote.

I've never had principles that bend in the breeze, so I'm not sure how that stuff works.

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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So Much "Fuzzy Logic" Coming from the Libs...
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2000, 06:52:00 PM »
I count the process that the fine people of Florida are granted and have the full right to, under law. I also count the voice that the American people are granted via the absentee vote, which they also have the right to, under law.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2000, 07:07:00 PM »
"Nixon, for all his many faults, was at least smart enough to realize that in 1960".

A common misperception.

"The machine counts were implemented for speed and to remove "bias." Now, apparently Hand count is less susceptible to bias."

Kinda runs counter to his passing a law in Texas, stating that hand counts are the best way of confirming votes under certain circumstances.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2000, 07:33:00 PM »
Nash,

I'm partly basing that comment on what Nixon told Earl Mazo of the New York Herald Tribune. Mazo was the 1st Nixon biographer and he also did a series on fraud in that particular election. Nixon told him "The country can't afford the agony of a constitutional crisis, and I damn well will not be a party to creating one just to become president or anything else."

The other part I base on a meeting Kennedy and Nixon had at the Key Biscayne Hotel on November 14. Kennedy apparently opened with "Well it's hard to tell who won the election." Nixon told Kennedy he would not challenge the offical results then and there. This from Richard Reeves, author of "President Kennedy: Profile of Power."

Please direct me to your information that would indicate that Nixon did attempt to challenge the results in a widely publicized fashion such as the Democrats have used this time. Thanks!

Kinda runs counter to his passing a law in Texas, stating that hand counts are the best way of confirming votes under certain circumstances.

I wasn't aware of this and would like to learn more, particularly about the certain circumstances. Can you point me to a link?

Lastly, how many and what type (machine/hand) of recounts is going to be considered "enough"? Inquiring minds want to know.    

Nothing is perfect. It would not suprise me a bit if they got a slightly different count every single time they did it, machine OR hand.  So when do we stop?

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 11-12-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2000, 08:57:00 PM »
Toad,

As for the voting law that Bush signed:

New York Times, Novermber 12th.

"Then there is the Texas bill that Mr. Bush signed into law in 1997: it states that when Texas elections are recounted, "a manual recount shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount."

I have heard this from a bunch of other sources as well (it's no real mystery).

As for Nixon's "graceful" exit:

You cite Earl Mazo as a source. Mazo was a conservate journalist for the New York Herald Tribune, as well as a close personal friend of Nixon, who launched a press frenzy over possible election fraud. Biased, perhaps? In any event, he's hardly a dispassionated nor uninterested party, and you can hardly expect to get the full story from him.

Your other source, Richard Reeves, had no way of knowing what Nixons actions or intentions were prior to conceding. Perhaps he did. I don't know. But all he was reporting here was what Nixon told Kennedy. Other than the fact that Nixon *did* indeed concede in relative short order, it doesn't really shed any light on this issue.

What we CAN assertain is what is on record. While Nixon was careful to not put a public
face on the massive Republican effort to challenge the election result, he not only authorized it but actively encouraged it. Publicly, Republican senators like Thruston Morton asked for recounts (yes, *recounts*) in 11 states just three days after the election. Privately, Nixon aides Bob Finch and Len Hall personally did field checks of votes in almost a dozen states. They did indeed obtain recounts, they involved US attorneys and the FBI, and impaneled grand juries. A slew of lawsuits were filed over alleged voting fraud, and appeals to state election commissions followed, albeit unsuccessfuly.

And I guess more germane to the election at hand here, with this furror over the recount, was the turn of events in 1960 Illinois. Unhappy with the results of the recount there, Republicans went to federal court, where their case was dismissed. They then appealed to the State Board of Elections, which also rejected their claims. It was not until Dec. 19 - over a month after the election - that the national Republican Party backed off its Illinois claims.

Similar results, and extended fights, took place in Texas and New Jersey among other states. In Hawaii, Republican efforts had the unintended result of reversing the state's electoral votes from Nixon to Kennedy.

That Nixon was clever enough to allow his aides and political friends to do the work on his behalf - while officially seeming to remove himself from the fray - should not let Americans have amnesia about what really happened in the wake of the 1960 vote.

-----edit-----

I think this important. In that 1960 election, some states - like California - initially fell into Kennedy's electoral count, but were reversed almost two weeks later *after absentee ballots were counted*.

Runs counter to this notion that some of you have that we oughtta just tank the election right here and now, before every vote has had a chance to be counted.

 
Quote
The precedent is now set. The credibility of the entire system has been called into question and we can never go back

Don't worry Toad, we've been here before. We survived it then and we'll survive this one now.


[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 11-12-2000).]

Offline Jack55

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« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2000, 09:10:00 PM »
"It doesn't matter who votes. What really matters is who counts the votes."

Joe Stalin

Offline Mighty1

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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2000, 07:33:00 AM »
Nash Bush DID pass that law but it was for a different type of ballot system so it really doesn't apply to Florida.
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Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2000, 08:15:00 AM »
Jesus H. Christ jumped up fiddling on a pogo stick Nash.  I've seen this question asked of you several times, yet you have not bothered to answer it once.  And though I'm wasting keystrokes, I'll ask it again:
How many recounts is enough?

Bush won the first count.  Bush won the second count.  As far as I'm concerned the only thing left to count are the absentee ballots.

But you seem to agree with Goron and his boys that the ballots need to be counter again and again and again and again and again and again ad nauseum, until the results they desire are achieved.

Just because a person was in too big of a hurry to take an extra 60 seconds and double check before punching thier ballot DOES NOT mean they are entitled to revote.  What it does mean is they should learn that lesson from thier mistake for the next time they can excercise thier most solemn right, the right to vote.  The butterfly ballot used in PBC was neither confusing nor illegal, the residents there just dinnae take the time to read it.  They also dinnae bother to voice any objections when the ballot was run in the newspapers and mailed to voters either.  They have no grounds to claim the ballot was confusing, yet you sit there and spout the DNC party line about confusing ballots and revotes.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2000, 08:57:00 AM »
Nash,

As far as the "Texas recount law" the ABC news just reported that one major difference is that it does not allow for single county or single precinct manual recounts.

It is a STATEWIDE recount, if what was on ABC is correct.

That is, "hand count one, you must hand count all." Further, like you, they implied that only in certain particular circumstances is a manual recount allowed. No elaboration on that however.

Now it is my understanding that the Dems DO NOT want a statewide manual recount in FL and in fact oppose that option. This from a recent CNN blurb. (It's getting hard to keep track of all the crap going on.)

Seems to make it a different issue if the Dems only want to recount "certain" counties. Just a guess, but I'd think they'd recount in places they believe favorable to them, unfavorable to the other side.

Do you have further clarification on this?

With respect to Nixon, he repeatedly explained his stance in that same way to all who asked. Mazo is the first published source, I believe.

While Nixon was careful to not put a public face on the massive Republican effort to challenge the election result, he not only authorized it but actively encouraged it.

That Nixon was clever enough to allow his aides and political friends to do the work on his behalf - while officially seeming to remove himself from the fray

I assume you have some proof that the surrogates were acting under Nixon's direct orders/supervision?

No? Then you will forgive those on this board who believe Gore is acting in exactly the same way that you attribute (as yet unsubstantiated) to Nixon?

Additionally, your text regarding Nixon seems IMHO to be in a somewhat condemnatory tone. That is, there are undertones of disapproval of Nixon's actions. Since Gore's actions (through surrogates like Christopher) are exactly similar to those you attribute to Nixon, may we assume you also disapprove of Gore's response to the election?

More importantly, the election was November 8, 1960. Reeves reports that Kennedy and Nixon met in Key Biscayne on the 14th, six days later. You agree that at that time Nixon stated to Kennedy that he would no longer contest the election?

Here we are now, six days after the 2000 election. It sure doesn't look like the election is going to be uncontested.

I am more than willing to wait until ALL the ballots are counted, including ABSENTEE ballots, once.

I am willing to wait longer while a machine recount is done. I'll restate that machines were viewed as an IMPROVEMENT in the voting process because they are 1) faster and 2) thought to be more unbiased than a junior party functionary doing a manual count.

My question to you is how many counts have to be done? When will the "last" recount be "official"?

If Bush wins the original count, wins the first machine recount, wins after the absentee ballots are counted....will that be enough?

How many times after the Absentee ballots are counted does he have to "win" Florida to "get" Florida?

Clearly, there exists the perception that the Democractic party officials in FL have assumed the "we'll just keep recounting until we finally win" mode.

Further, some of the "talking heads" have discussed "ballot fatigue". The more you run these ballots through machines and handle them in a manual recount, the more chance some of them become "illegal". The "chags" from other holes become loose and fall out. So some guy that voted for ONE candidate for President has his ballot now discarded because another "chag" became loose or fell out of a different hole.

Does this not then disenfranchise that voter who actually did everything right the first time?

So, Nash...how many recounts is finally enough? Absentee ballots aside here. Those will be counted for the last time on the due date.

How many times should we recount the "normal" ballots until then?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2000, 11:37:00 AM »
Just read in today's Atlanta Constitution that a THIRD mechanical tally of Palm Beach County's vots shows Bush ahead by 288. (Counties Sweating Over Recounts, by Alan Judd).

<Absentee Ballots Aside for the following discussion>

Ok, now we have the inital tally, a machine recount and ANOTHER machine recount. All show Bush ahead.

How many does Bush need, Nash?

If the manual recount shows Bush ahead, would that be enough to end the PBC turmoil?

Or do we have to recount until Gore wins ONE?

So if we recount 37 times and Bush wins and we recount ONE MORE TIME and Gore wins...then Gore has it, right?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2000, 11:50:00 AM »
Funny how the democrats are crying foul now that a FL judge (republican) has followed the law and stated all manual counts have to be in 7 days after the election - tomorrow. They fail to mention the fact that the rest of the legal wrangling has been overseen by democrats....

Just heard the judge (democrat) ruled that the manual count should continue, a defeat for bush but it does not affect tomorrows deadline... not yet anyway.

Eagler
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Offline Udie

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« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2000, 12:13:00 PM »
Texas has the manual recount law because all but 13 counties use hand written ballots.  

 udie

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2000, 02:41:00 PM »
My question is this.....if the State of Florida's entire Electoral votes are still unclear, then why isn't a hand recount be doing on a Statewide Basis?

Doesn't it seem  that in the interest to get a "full, fair, and accurate count of the vote" you would have to hand count the entire states ballots?  This, to me, is the fairest way of ensuring that the ENTIRE States votes are treated equally.

Having said that....I also think that a count and a recount are enough, but who am I, just a guy who took his voting seriously enough to take my time in the voting booth to fully understand the ballot and the ballot questions I was voting on.

Cobra