Author Topic: Radar Ranges & Stations  (Read 803 times)

Offline EagleDNY

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Radar Ranges & Stations
« on: September 08, 2006, 03:23:26 PM »
Lets face it - the 12 mi radar range circle for everything in AH is a bit primitive.  It might improve gameplay (and be more realistic) if the radar ranges were adjusted a bit.

Some data for your consideration:
The 1944 Mk.12 (with Mk.22 Height Finder) Radar on an American CV had a range of 45,000 yds (thats about 25 miles).

Wurzburg GCI (ground control intercept) radars used by the germans to vector fighters to bomber interceptions had a range of 18 miles.

Freya early warning radars used by germany to detect bomber formations had a range of 125 miles.

The British Chain Home radar system used in the BOB had a range of 185 miles.

That said, lets propose some adjustments:
CV groups: why not increase the radar range to 25 miles?  It might give the CV defenders a bit more of a chance to get up and intercept incoming bombers.  
Small Fields:  Small field, small radar - keep the 12 mile dar circle.
Medium Fields:  Better field, better radar - how about an 18 or 25 mile radar circle?  
Large Fields: Best radar available - 25 mile dar circle minimum, and we could give consideration to even larger ranges.  

We also might want to consider Radar Strats - perhaps a very long range (5 sector - 125 mile?) radar based in the HQ and the major cities in each sector of the map.  

Radar was a big part of the air war.  I'd like to see it become a bit more useful here too.  One thing we could definitely use is an altitude indicator - it would be nice to be able to look at a radar trace and know if the incoming is at 2.5K or 25K when I'm trying to do an interception.  

It might be interesting to be able to man a radar scope (perhaps at a large field or strat) and vector your countries fighters towards those incoming pesky suicide lancs.  I think it would also give the jabo & bomber boys one more thing to have to bomb out of existence on a regular basis at each base (besides ord & troops), and putting up strat radars at the cities & HQ gives us something strategic to defend (or pay the price for failing to defend).

Comments?  Thats my $.02 worth.

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Offline nirvana

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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2006, 04:34:48 PM »
I think increasing radar range would be good on CVs for the point you made about defenders being able to see them, but when you are on relatively small maps, 25 miles is a hell of a big area.
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Offline porkfrog

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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2006, 04:55:33 PM »
some good ideas. especially for the CV groups.

now, WHERE THE HELL IS THE B-25!!!?????




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Offline cav58d

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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2006, 06:01:16 PM »
I definately support increasing CV radar range!
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Offline Krusty

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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2006, 06:57:30 PM »
You presume AH terrains are 1:1 scale. They are not. You say the British radar had 180 miles range in real life, but the channel itself is over 100 miles wide at its narrowest spot. The radar is not historical because this is a game. It must be balanced.

Oh and just FYI a sector is 25 miles square. Having a CV with sector-wide dar (it's pretty close to this already) is a tad much.

As for the german radar, it could detect bomber formations that far out, but not like the perfect dot dar we have now. Most early radar was like that. General approximations. You had a spike on an oscilliscope, that was the "con".

Offline Lusche

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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2006, 07:19:58 PM »
Itīs a bit strange, but I have to agree on everything Krusty said.
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2006, 07:15:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
You presume AH terrains are 1:1 scale. They are not. You say the British radar had 180 miles range in real life, but the channel itself is over 100 miles wide at its narrowest spot. The radar is not historical because this is a game. It must be balanced.



its 21miles at its narrowest point, 150ish at its widest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:France_manche_vue_dover.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Channel


back to the subject. I think the radar at bases is ok... maybe large airfields should have larger ranges.

But your point is a true one. In WWII the bases was 100s of miles apart, in AH, they are 25miles. Larger radar circles would end up overlapping the other side bases!

I would think a radar station add on would be better. Mappers could plop a radar station down that has a range whatever they want set. The radar station would be like a strat target, and would have many towers spread out and would be hard to bring down for a normal jabo.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2006, 07:21:49 AM by Overlag »
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
This post has a Krusty rating of 37

Offline NCLawman

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2006, 08:04:08 AM »
I see both side of this debate and both are reasonable perceptions.  But I will lean toward the side of improving radar (to an extent).

I agree that the radar should be proportional to the map size as related to historical abilities.  To that end, I think the 12 mile circle is good for the individual bases.  However, I will agree that CV radar should be extended as it is over ocean waters.  The lack of land based objects provides less interefence and therefore ocean based radar should be more efficient and better ranged.  I also agree with the point of having a few larger "country" radars in strategic locations that provide very wide coverage.  For example, Radar factories could have 100 or 125 mile radius range. (but that is just pulling a  random number -- not necessarily the right proportion, but just an example.)
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Offline hitech

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Radar Ranges & Stations
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2006, 08:29:15 AM »
You might wish to consider how the radar range changes would effect overall game play. Im not in anyway saying which way the radar should be, but  I would not look at the change as having anything  to do with realistic ranges of radar, because our radar simply simulates the complete aircraft tracking systems,including observers, radar, comunication, pilot reports,comand centers ecetera .

Wrather I would be interested in how the range change would effect game play.

HiTech

Offline SKJohn

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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2006, 08:49:50 AM »
Wow, Hitech - your spelling is improving!  A long post with only a few minor problems, (' in I'm, affect vs effect, an m in communication and command, etc.), but overall very much improved!
Keep up the good work! :aok

Offline bj229r

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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2006, 12:10:15 PM »
If dar was made more useful, there would just be more LA7 tards augering in to kill it, thus making future kills/vulches/HO's easier to be had
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Offline E25280

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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2006, 01:22:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Wrather I would be interested in how the range change would effect game play.

HiTech
Already stated, but I will echo/expand . . .

There are a lot of complaints about heavy bomber formations sinking carriers (which I won't repeat).  A longer dar range on the CVs would presumably make it more challenging to sink a CV with "low" buffs because the fighters would have more time to vector in and intercept.  So the buffs would have to go higher, which makes hitting a moving CV more unlikely.

This would hopefully return the importance/prominence of the torpedo bomber and dive bomber to carrier combat.
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Offline EagleDNY

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Radar Ranges & Stations
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2006, 03:53:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
You might wish to consider how the radar range changes would effect overall game play. Im not in anyway saying which way the radar should be, but  I would not look at the change as having anything  to do with realistic ranges of radar, because our radar simply simulates the complete aircraft tracking systems,including observers, radar, comunication, pilot reports,comand centers ecetera .

Rather I would be interested in how the range change would effect game play.

HiTech


Understood that the current radar system is only simulating aircraft tracking, and understoond that our terrains are not 1:1 with the european or pacific theatres.  While we don't have realistic ranges between bases, what we do have is a realistic speed of the incoming aircraft on the attack, so early warning times are either unrealistically low (bombers detected 12 mi out from your CV), or unrealistically high (dar bar shows up 8 sectors away for a mission climbing out across the ocean to your HQ, or dar bar shows the location of an enemy CV long before it gets into radar range).

Increasing CV radar range gets you a more reasonable early warning time, which (hopefully) gets you more interceptions of the single player with his formation of bombers intent on suicide.  I think this gives you larger CV air battles as it will be likely take larger groups of bombers coming in higher to get into a position to successfully attack.  I think you might also get more people trying to sneak in low with torpedo bombers, which I wouldn't mind seeing either as mass torpedo plane missions are pretty rare.    

On land, losing dar bars in favor of strategically placed long range radars that "show it all" in their ranges would tend to vector players to the fighting that much quicker, and again lead to larger air battles.  I think you get this effect whether you do "strat" radars of very long range, or if you just increase the range of radars at large airbases only.  

Like furballing?  You'll still see where the big furball is near a base even if the short-range radar is porked.  

Like intercepting bombers?  Well, you'll see them coming (at 25, 50, 75 miles?) out, and you'll have a chance to get up, group up, and go do an honest-to-god interception before they get to target.  Play your cards right and you might even STOP the raid before they get to target.
   
Like bombing? Well it'll be a lot more realistic for you since you'll probably want to start winging up in larger formations and taking escorts with you to get to target.  You might want to take that tough old B17G instead of the Lancs so you have some defensive guns.  In smaller faster buffs you'll have a better chance without escorts, but you won't have that huge bombload.  We might see more Mossies, A-20s, or fast buffs like the Ki-67 being used.  
 
Like capturing bases?  Well, the equation is basically the same - get a cap on the enemy base, or sneak in under-dar and surprise your enemies in their bunks.  You'd have some local strats to target that might mean something to your efforts (the big radar stations / large airbases), and you'll want to defend yours since being blind on one side of your country or the other will put you at a disadvantage.

Radar overlap doesn't bother me in this scenario.  Being able to scan into enemy territory a bit just shows you how the air battle is developing.  Seeing reinforcements, resupply missions, bombers climbing out behind the lines, etc. just gives you more things to consider in your mission planning.  
 
It might also be interesting to consider terrain effects (radar blindspot behind a mountain anyone?) or aircraft size (larger aircraft detected sooner) as well.    Although I don't see that as immediately necessary, it could be implemented later on.  

As with anything else, we might not know all the effects on gameplay until a change is implemented.  It might be worth giving this a try, or just setting all dars at 25 miles instead of 12 and seeing what that does to gameplay.  

Lets not be afraid to experiment for a week here and there - it'll keep the game fresh and we might learn something ;)

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Offline EagleDNY

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Radar Ranges & Stations
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2006, 03:55:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
If dar was made more useful, there would just be more LA7 tards augering in to kill it, thus making future kills/vulches/HO's easier to be had


Might be hard for the LA-7 to get 3-4 sectors behind the lines to take out a big strat radar station.  At least you'll see him coming....

Offline EagleDNY

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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2006, 04:29:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Oh and just FYI a sector is 25 miles square. Having a CV with sector-wide dar (it's pretty close to this already) is a tad much.

As for the german radar, it could detect bomber formations that far out, but not like the perfect dot dar we have now. Most early radar was like that. General approximations. You had a spike on an oscilliscope, that was the "con".


Actually, I think a CV with a full sector dar would be about right.  American CV groups normally had outlying radar pickets (DDs) with their own radars providing early warning of kamikaze attacks.  At Okinawa, they had destroyers stationed 60 miles away as early warning pickets, and these pickets were themselves the targets of concentrated kamikaze attacks.  

A little math - on station 60 miles out (+10 mile radar range) = 70 mile detection range divided by 280mph aircraft speed (for simplicity) = say 15 minutes of early warning before the enemy bombers get over target.  

In AH2 we get 12 miles / 240+ mph bomber speed (when they aren't diving in) = 5 minutes early warning at most.  That isn't really time enough to get off the deck, climb out and make an interception.  25 mile range will still only give you at most 10 minutes, which will still make it dicey if the bombers are high, but should give you a shot at low flying suicide bombers.  

Not a perfect solution, but then again nothing ever is.  Also - realize that although we get position, we don't get height on our supposedly perfect radar.  At least the British and German radars had height finding - knowing that the bomber stream is coming in from 270 degrees at 25K is a lot better than seeing a dot 12 miles out that could be at 2K, 10K or 25K when you are trying to make an interception.  Since the german stations would triangulate, you can be sure they had a real good idea where everything was and what height is was at, which is more than we have.

Lets try the experiment - double the CV radar range and see what happens.

EagleDNY
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