9/11 through Arab and Iranian Eyes

[Elfie]

what he is doing is really propaganda,
with his post he says every arab & iranian is thinking what he linked in his post.

For those of you still interested in what the Muslim reaction was to 9/11, Memri has put together a 43 minute video documentary narrated by Ron Silver and PDF entitled "The Arab and Iranian Reaction to 9/11 5 years later"

No where in that does Seagoon say *all Muslims* or *every Muslim and Iranian*.  Neither was the title of the video/pdf his.

Some of you act like Christians aren't allowed to have and express their own views on world events/opinions......just because they are Christians. As a Christian, I do post according to my beliefs and Faith in God. I absolutely expect Seagoon, as a Christian pastor, to do the same.

I expect no less of you as well. You should post according to your own personal beliefs, anything else would be hypocritical would it not?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
sorry i disagree here, what he is doing is really propaganda,
with his post he says every arab & iranian is thinking what he linked in his post.
This is so wrong, because i knew a few Iranians who work close with us
and they disagree completely with what he posted posted. They have
a family & children like we have and they main wish is peace.
This thread is just spreading more & more blind hate & war.

And before some MP edit my post like the last time and call it personal attack,
this is the last time i read  some of his propaganda BS, he is on
the Ignore from 11.9.06

R
Gh0stFT

He did not say EVERY Arab, Muslim, or Iranian thinks that. He did say it is a prevalent attiude in the Middle East. You did manage to put those words in his mouth though.

As to your Iranian co-workers, they are not in Iran, or the Middle East, are they? Or did you move there and not tell us? There's no doubt that plenty of Muslims, Arabs, and Iranians do not believe what was shown in that vidoe. However, your position that those who do not believe that way are  even close to a majority is VERY hard to support. Just because the Iranians YOU know, who are evidently (correct me if I'm wrong and you are somewhere in the Middle East) not in Iran or elsewhere in the Middle East, do not support or embrace what you viewed in that video, does not mean that a large portion of the population of the Middle East, be they Arab, Muslim, or Iranian, DO believe it.

You do realize that what was shown in that video was broadcast on STATE SPONSORED TELEVISION? Meaning that not only do those people shown believe that, but some of them are government officials, and they are on a medium owned and operated by those governments preaching that hate and those lies. And don't try to pass it off on freedom of speech, those governments aren't exactly known for embracing the First Amendment or freedom of speech.

[RAIDER14]

9-11-01 kinda graphic

[Nashwan]

And you have yet to offer any real evidence that any of the translations are not true and correct translations.

It's not so much the accuracy of the translations, as the context and importance placed on them.

Imagine someone arguing a case that America was full of right wing nuts embarked on a crusade to destroy Islam and bring about the second coming of Christ. Think you could argue that case by collecting the work of right wing radio talkshow hosts, "religious leaders" like Pat Robertson, letters sent to newspapers, publications released by milita groups? Of course. You could back it up by indictments of America by left wing university profs, excerpts from the msm etc.

You could of course argue the opposite case just by choosing different US sources.

The problem with Memri is that they select their sources to argue their agenda, and readers in the west have little idea of how much weight should be attached to them.

For example, saying a newspaper published an article, and giving its title, tells the reader very little about how important that newspaper is. If the NYT published an article, it deserves to have some weight attached to it, if the Montana Militia Monthly published an article, it can be safely dismissed as the work of nutters, of which every country has its fair share.

Indeed, you could find a whole host of sources in the US to back up the claim 9/11 was the work of the CIA, but that doesn't make them true, or an accurate portrayal of American opinion.

Are the translations accurate? Are the people shown in the clips identified correctly? If the answer to both questions is "yes", then what they are showing you is factual, and is nothing more than a presentation of some of what is being broadcast or published in the middle east media.

I've no idea if the people are identified correctly.

What Seagoon said was "what the Muslim reaction was to 9/11,"

Not what some Muslim's reaction was, but what the Muslim reaction was, and the difference between those two is how Memri operates. It present's some views, and invites you to assume they represent mainstream views.

[Elfie]

The problem with Memri is that they select their sources to argue their agenda, and readers in the west have little idea of how much weight should be attached to them.

That's nothing new, ALL media outlets do the same thing. It's up to us to use a little common sense when viewing the news.

Big difference between your example of the US media and this video, the US gov't doesnt own/operate the media unlike many other countries around the world including the Middle East.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Nashwan
It's not so much the accuracy of the translations, as the context and importance placed on them.

Imagine someone arguing a case that America was full of right wing nuts embarked on a crusade to destroy Islam and bring about the second coming of Christ. Think you could argue that case by collecting the work of right wing radio talkshow hosts, "religious leaders" like Pat Robertson, letters sent to newspapers, publications released by milita groups? Of course. You could back it up by indictments of America by left wing university profs, excerpts from the msm etc.

You could of course argue the opposite case just by choosing different US sources.

The problem with Memri is that they select their sources to argue their agenda, and readers in the west have little idea of how much weight should be attached to them.

For example, saying a newspaper published an article, and giving its title, tells the reader very little about how important that newspaper is. If the NYT published an article, it deserves to have some weight attached to it, if the Montana Militia Monthly published an article, it can be safely dismissed as the work of nutters, of which every country has its fair share.

Indeed, you could find a whole host of sources in the US to back up the claim 9/11 was the work of the CIA, but that doesn't make them true, or an accurate portrayal of American opinion.



I've no idea if the people are identified correctly.

What Seagoon said was "what the Muslim reaction was to 9/11,"

Not what some Muslim's reaction was, but what the Muslim reaction was, and the difference between those two is how Memri operates. It present's some views, and invites you to assume they represent mainstream views.

You very conveniently ignore that what you saw in those video clips came from television networks owned and controlled by the GOVERNMENTS of Middle Eastern nations. You weren't seeing the Middle Eastern equivalent of "FSTV" or any of the other fringe channels found on satellite or cable TV, you were watching official government television. So yes, what you saw is a direct reflection of the governments controlling those broadcasts, and no, it is not comparable to fringe broadcasts by any "rightwing" or "leftwing" "nutters" as you call them.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The readiness of people to believe that a former colonel in the IDF, who for 5 years ran the Israeli civil administration in the West Bank, is presenting them with an accurate view of Arab opinion is amazing.

I'm sure anyone posting links to propaganda pieces from Al Jazeerah or the Electronic Intifada would be quickly condemned, and the articles ignored.

Propaganda? All I saw was a whole bunch of Muslims claiming that the US or Israel planned and executed the 9/11 attack. It's propaganda alright but not the sort I think you mean.

[Gh0stFT]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You do realize that what was shown in that video was broadcast on STATE SPONSORED TELEVISION? Meaning that not only do those people shown believe that, but some of them are government officials, and they are on a medium owned and operated by those governments preaching that hate and those lies.

thats the problem, its theyr gouverment who sell this lies,
the "normal people" who work daily and just to try to feed thery famaliy,
and even like Mc Donalds (like i do ;) imagine ignore this people
and give them a bloody nose.

[Elfie]

thats the problem, its theyr gouverment who sell this lies,

Every time they sell those lies, a few more people believe.

[uberhun]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
sorry i disagree here, what he is doing is really propaganda,
with his post he says every arab & iranian is thinking what he linked in his post.
This is so wrong, because i knew a few Iranians who work close with us
and they disagree completely with what he posted posted. They have
a family & children like we have and they main wish is peace.
This thread is just spreading more & more blind hate & war.

And before some MP edit my post like the last time and call it personal attack,
this is the last time i read  some of his propaganda BS, he is on
the Ignore from 11.9.06

R
Gh0stFT

Gh0stFT,
I think we all know here that the entire Muslim world does not want to declare war on the entire western population. But just the same it is the Zealots that are throwing gas on the fire. The uninformed and the the less educated are buying what they are selling. It is the "Cult of Philosophy". We are Infidels unworthy of the grace of God. Conform or die. I seem to recall a popular leader in Europe spreading the same garbage. If one does not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it.

[Seagoon]

Hi Nashwan,

Originally posted by Nashwan
The readiness of people to believe that a former colonel in the IDF, who for 5 years ran the Israeli civil administration in the West Bank, is presenting them with an accurate view of Arab opinion is amazing.

I'm sure anyone posting links to propaganda pieces from Al Jazeerah or the Electronic Intifada would be quickly condemned, and the articles ignored.

Nashwan, I see, so the Memri pieces are yet more Mossad/CIA disinformation designed to spur an attack on Islam? Not too different an opinion from that expressed by the people on the video clips, eh?

I assume you realize that most Muslim nations only have between 1 and 4 state-run broadcast channels, and therefore the impact of what is broadcast on those channels to the umma is tremendous because there isn't exactly a wealth of alternative programming available, especially for the poor. Many of the clips in question where taken from the larger talk shows on the main channels, and from discussions I've had with people actually living in Iran, for instance, "this was just a Zionist conspiracy" really is what is being broadcast.

Look, I fully realize that I'm rather like Churchill in the 1930s, in being a lonely voice in the wilderness saying "these Nazis and this chap Hitler really are terribly dangerous and bent on world conquest,"  while the intelligentsia dismiss the threat and claim that the Germans are being demonized and misunderstood by "warmongers" like Churchill.

But please do me the favor of not saying this is "propaganda" on my part. I have nothing to gain and everything to lose personally by taking an unpopular stand and saying "its the ideology that's the problem." I don't go about claiming that all non-Christian religions are bent on violent world conquest, in fact I would catagorically deny that any other religion apart from Islam has the same kind of designs and orientation. Also, while I think Islam is a dangerous lie, I do not hate Muslims, or wish them harm.  My goal in vocally opposing Islam is mostly that our children and grandchildren might not have to choose someday between conversion, dhimmitude, or death. I have little hope that Europe will escape becoming part of the Dar-el-Islam - especially given that Europeans have no counter-ideology save nihilism and materialism, little or no will to resist, and aren't even replacing themselves in terms of population growth, but I still have hope for the USA provided they don't delude themselves regarding the threat or tear themselves to shreds first through political infighting.

In any event, while I am willing to live under Muslim domination and realize that someday I might have to, I have no illusions that it will be easy, that I will be more free to preach the gospel than fellow pastors do in the majority of Muslim nations where, for instance, non-Muslim religious assemblies, building new churches, or converting from Islam are illegal, or that my family will have an easier life as evangelicals.

- SEAGOON

[Elfie]

Look, I fully realize that I'm rather like Churchill in the 1930s, in being a lonely voice in the wilderness

Seagoon, you arent alone my friend.

I fully realize the implications of these types of broadcasts in the middle east. Each time another one of these people gets on the air spewing this rediculous garbage, a few more people will believe it. What makes these types of broadcasts rediculous is the fact that bin-Laden himself has admitted repeatedly as being the mastermind behind the attacks.

[Vulcan]

I agree with seagoons view entirely on this one. And you know how anti-christian I can be.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Seagoon
My goal in vocally opposing Islam is mostly that our children and grandchildren might not have to choose someday between conversion, dhimmitude, or death.

- SEAGOON

Don't worry Sea; we haven't even begun to play Cowboys and Muslims yet.

[bj229r]

Heck, a healthy % of those in Western Europe believe the same