Author Topic: New arena format Part 2 - Use this thread, don't open duplicates  (Read 35431 times)

Offline Waffle

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New arena format Part 2 - Use this thread, don't open duplicates
« Reply #900 on: September 22, 2006, 12:45:48 PM »
one thing I was curious about...if there are mulitiple arenas / less players per arena - smaller maps / less objects per maps... does that mean in theory - you could add more details to the existing objects / terrain? or is that moot since it would still be a framerate issue?

Offline hitech

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« Reply #901 on: September 22, 2006, 01:01:52 PM »
Quote
I'm not saying that sorry gameplay is in no way a result of some design issues, but I do think the majority of the blame for crappy gameplay rests at the feet of the players. Like you said, we have had great fun and great fights when there were 30-50 players online. The biggest difference between now and then (IMHO) is the mentality of the players, back then we subscribed to these games in order to fight human opponents, since we had all blown away all the boxed sims had to offer. Nowadays it seems the emphasis is in blowing up things that don't meneuver or shoot back, and actively finding places to do this where there is no human opposition.


Edbert: I disagree, the symtom of the bad behavior is caused by issues in game design. And understand I'm using the term game design with a very large brush. People tend not to belive that issues like squad sizes, arena sizes, type of play prometed by the game,scoring, kill messages, types of comnuication have an impact on how people interact with  eachother I.E (community) . But when you step back and look at things as a whole they are what shapes the rules and standarads of the community.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #902 on: September 22, 2006, 01:11:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I'm not saying that sorry gameplay is in no way a result of some design issues, but I do think the majority of the blame for crappy gameplay rests at the feet of the players. Like you said, we have had great fun and great fights when there were 30-50 players online. The biggest difference between now and then (IMHO) is the mentality of the players, back then we subscribed to these games in order to fight human opponents, since we had all blown away all the boxed sims had to offer.


Theres the diffenrece, it's gone from 30-50 players to at peak over 600, all with their own way of playing the game and having fun.

Nothing to do with 'mentaility', it's just their way of playing doesn't co-incide with yours, doesn't make it right or wrong.

It's something I've tried to explain time and time again, but certain people are convinced their way is the ONLY way, and everyone else is wrong.

I found the perfect solution if you want balance -

Multiple arenas with only one from each side allowed in.
Each arena would be based on plane/gv type so no-one would have any unfair advantage, and respawn another when the current one fills up.
Of course you'd have to go to two sides incase two gang up one one.
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Offline E25280

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« Reply #903 on: September 22, 2006, 01:11:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I posted on ch 200 something like "why don;t we all just meet in the middle and fight?", got 2 or 3 replies, all said "that's no fun".

I think that is the difference, although I don't know why or even understand it.
This analogy is necessarily flawed, but I can't think of a better one.

You and I are in a field.  You say, "hit me".  I knock you down.  I say "hit me back."  You knock me down.  We could do this forever.  It would get boring.

Throw in a ball.  "I'll bet you can't knock me to the ground before I reach that tree."  "The heck I can't".  "Ha, I beat you to the tree."  .

Slapping each other silly for the sake of slapping each other sounds boring to me.  Throw in a ball and a "goal", and you have a "game."  It becomes "see if you can stop me" or "I'll bet I can stop you," which is IMO more interesting than simply who can hit hardest.  

The base capture is simply the ball that makes the game possible.

Hope that makes sense.
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Offline viper215

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« Reply #904 on: September 22, 2006, 01:23:25 PM »
Quote
Illegal squad



How are we an illegal squad lazs? its not our fault people want to fly with us and not want to fly with you.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #905 on: September 22, 2006, 02:32:09 PM »
viper... really, seriously... How old are you?  If you are like 15 I will let up a little on you.

BK's only rule is that if even one person doesn't want you in..... you don't get in.    

Your rule (amoung many) is that if you ever explore any other country even if it only to improve gameplay for the entire community... you are kicked out.

We accept very few.... you beg for people.  You mega squads take anyone with a mouse and the abilty to not understand what you are doing to them and the community with your rules.

How can you say that your "rule" is good for the community?  How can you say that good gameplay can ever be achieved when every attempt at balancing sides is something that your squad does everything in it's power to fight?

Your rule makes anything you say about good gameplay meaningless.

Our squad switches at will... we will even fight each other.... we go to the side with least numbers when possible and areas that are evenly matched at others.

We get to fly with the guys we were fighting last week... we get to know em on a whole new level..

Sooooo...  who is "community" here?   you with your cult like rules and refusal to help the community and the game with any kind of balancing and your inability to ever interact with any other "chesspiece" other than negatively or....

Us with our willingness to make for good gameplay and fight for and against every player no matter what "chesspiece"?

What is the more logical and fair way?

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Offline viper215

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« Reply #906 on: September 22, 2006, 02:42:12 PM »
See Rule #7
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 03:27:45 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Edbert

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« Reply #907 on: September 22, 2006, 03:08:53 PM »
Dale, I see your point, with regards to the rewards system particularly. I just wasn't going to say that the terrain or field spacing were the primary factors as eagle suggested. We had great fights on a pooltable-terrain with a few pyramid-mountains in the past.

Kev, my use of the term 'mentality' was not intended to disparage. Mentality in the sense of perspective or intent or point-of-view is what I meant. Back in "the day" our comminity was much more single minded, we wanted to fight. Now we are more diverse, as well as large as you correctly pointed out. The trick is in the balancing act of the reward system, the system must not reward one player for something that it detrimental to the game.

E25280, I understand you, and agree that your analogy is more accurate than mine. In fact mine was more of an anecdotal one than anything since it was just last night. But what if the "ball" in your analogy gets stolen and hidden, then the other player also hides or wont come back to the ballfield? I understand that hide-and-seek is yet another schoolyard game, and can be fun at times, but I wouldn't want to pay a subscription to play that game online :D
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 03:11:51 PM by Edbert »

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #908 on: September 22, 2006, 03:50:03 PM »
When HTC made the Sept. 13th changes, I was one of those shaking his fist screaming mad that HTC broke the community.  I posted in the Sticky two times; both were strongly against what was done.

I also posted away from the general public in the CM forum too.  I was not happy.  I did quite the rant.

Some time has passed, and to HTC credit, I "get" it now.  What HTC is trying to do here really has a chance to work. It has the potential to change AHII back into what many of the "old timers" call "the good ole' days".  I look at what HTC has done with the multi-arenas and see that he is shaping the game into something even better than what we had.  He really does know what he's talking about, and he's in a position to see the "big picture", whereas we aren't.  Have faith in him and what he is doing.

We, the community, need to try and help him out in this process.  Gone are the days of the 700 player masses in the MA.  They are gone.  Quit complaining.  That is the PAST.  Get over it.  Let's work on the here and now, and towards the future of this game.

I am putting out a request to the "leaders" in this game, and the community  (squad CO's, old timers, etc,etc...).  Or heck, the followers too I guess.

I would humbly ask that you do everything you can to help HTC with this new arena change.  And the only way to do this is by example.  

Sides imbalanced?  Change sides.  My squad has flown Knights for as long as I have played AH (5ish years now).  I have formed many positive relationships on the Knights.  The WidowMakers, at least if I have anything to say about it, will for the time being fly on whatever sides has the least players on it.  (Yes, even Bishop [the horror... the horror....])

Now, I can't force my squad to change sides to help balance out the arena.  Some of them won't.  But I can do it.  And hopefully they will follow my example and do so as well.  Lead by example.

The game is moving forward.  I am sure once the new arena's have balanced out in numbers, you will find that you can all fly together once more, on whatever side you want.   Unfortunately that time is not now.  We are in a transitional phase.  Let's be part of the solution not the problem.

WE, the COMMUNITY, need to make this work.  You DO NOT want HTC to step in and FORCE the sides to balance out, and that is exactly where this is going.  Try to imagine logging in, and only being allowed to fly on the side with the lowest numbers, and you can't switch.  That could very well happen if we as a COMMUNITY doesn't do something about it.  Don't force HTC to step in and do a COAD fix for it.  You won't like it.  

This is our time to shine.  Here.  Now.  Sure it might mean changing sides 3-4 times a day as the numbers fluctuate.  You know what?  That's ok.  This is only temporary.  Give it a try, you just might like it.  Being a leader, or "known", or at the very least super vocal on chn200, (or heck, any player really) other players will see you doing it, and do it as well.  The sides will balance out, and a much better time will be had by all.

To some this is asking a lot.  Well, i'm asking it.  We need to have faith that Dale knows what he's doing here, and we should be trying to HELP him make this a better game.  Things will even out soon enough.  Until then, let's all try to be part of the solution, not the problem.

So next time you log in, check the County Status, and if one side is horribly unbalanced, change to it.  Not only that, if you have friends or squaddies on, asks them to go with you.  



If I may, I would like to address FALCONWING here personally.  I considered doing this in private, but it applies to any CO of a large squad.

FALCONWING and I are (I think anyway) on good terms, and I have much respect for him (and I hope that is reciprocated).

Brother, you have a chance at helping shape the future of this game.  In an arena with 600 players, 60 are a lot, but not overwhelming.  In an arena that holds 250 players, 60 players is a HUGE amount that CAN affect the gameplay of the other 190 players.  I don't want you to forget the past (i.e. you history, your rules, all that).  Far from it.  But please consider instead focusing on what you might be able to do to make it a better future in the game for EVERYBODY in the game.  

Because you are in charge of such a large group, it has ripple effects on a ton of players, intended or not.  I hope you realize just how large a ripple effect on the player base you really have.  I respect what you have created on the Bishops.  I really do.  The WM's tried 3 wings in AW and ended up disbanding it all and changing countries.  (Thus the JB's and a few other squads that are now in AH were formed btw)  Managing that many players is no easy task.  Until everything balances out, please consider letting the BOP's change sides to even things up.  It would only be on a temporary basis, and I don't think that is asking too much.  If you do it, others will also.   (*cough* there's that ripple I mentioned)

This only needs to be done on a short-term basis until all the arenas even out some.  Balance will eventually be restored, and all you can settle in on one side again.  This is a short-term inconvenience, which will have long term, long lasting results.

It would help, and I really would appreciate you considering it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 04:23:03 PM by WMLute »
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #909 on: September 22, 2006, 04:00:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
This analogy is necessarily flawed, but I can't think of a better one.

You and I are in a field.  You say, "hit me".  I knock you down.  I say "hit me back."  You knock me down.  We could do this forever.  It would get boring.

Throw in a ball.  "I'll bet you can't knock me to the ground before I reach that tree."  "The heck I can't".  "Ha, I beat you to the tree."  .

Slapping each other silly for the sake of slapping each other sounds boring to me.  Throw in a ball and a "goal", and you have a "game."  It becomes "see if you can stop me" or "I'll bet I can stop you," which is IMO more interesting than simply who can hit hardest.  

The base capture is simply the ball that makes the game possible.

Hope that makes sense.


QFT.

Dog-fights are fun but they are even better when there is a purpose such as base defense or offense. Otherwise might as well just be in the DA...

oh and it's really funny to hear people in a 30 man squad whining about a 90 man squad. LOL
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 04:09:48 PM by Raider179 »

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #910 on: September 22, 2006, 04:01:00 PM »
WMLute's response should be the LAST post in this thread.
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Offline airspro

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« Reply #911 on: September 22, 2006, 04:04:36 PM »
About players only playing against AI online and not seeming to want to play again other players > Lost the  Quote of yours Edbert :(  <-- think quote here lol :)

========

Edbert I am guessing here that you have never played DAoC or WoW type games ? They do that all the time on that type of game . There might be alot more new players coming from that type of game now than in the past .

You get in group of 8 , big assed groups of 100 (raids) sometimes and farm stuff or do quests for new abilities etc . Getting to Master lvl 10 was just like that in DAoC . Or getting artifacts for your toon also . I think once I was in a horde of 110 that killed the King and Queen in the Ice Cave in Midgard DAoC took 4 hours to just to get to them .

Working together online to just kill AI is nothing new to a player coming from that environment .
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 04:08:34 PM by airspro »
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Offline scottydawg

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« Reply #912 on: September 22, 2006, 04:11:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
WMLute's response should be the LAST post in this thread.


Except for yours.

Well put, WMLute... very astute.  Thanks!

Offline shiningpathb4me

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« Reply #913 on: September 22, 2006, 04:17:12 PM »
I've been playing the new arenas for several days and I've noticed that if rooks want to fly late war, they have to do so in an arena dominated by the bishops. with the knights running a close second. There should be a limit on the number of players one side can have in an arena.  It's friday night and I've no doubt where I'll wind up playing tonight.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #914 on: September 22, 2006, 04:36:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
...snip...
 People tend not to belive that issues like squad sizes, arena sizes, type of play prometed by the game,scoring, kill messages, types of comnuication have an impact on how people interact with  eachother I.E (community) . But when you step back and look at things as a whole they are what shapes the rules and standarads of the community.



This is also a contender for "ought to be last post of the thread."


The principle is everywhere in real life; from Weaver's title Ideas Have Consequences to "the basic principle of any design is FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION."

The rule sets in life (whether in politics, society, or games) greatly influence our behavior. If behavior wasnt at target, restting the rule sets makes incredible sense.
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