Author Topic: Custom Nike shoes ?  (Read 1095 times)

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2001, 05:53:00 AM »
easymo - you're wasting your breath. Do-gooders sleep better if they slag-off something they know nothing about.

I wonder why every time there's no news to report we hear about "poor Vietnameese/Indian/insert-your-own girl making trainers/footballs/whatevers for $10-a-week/half-of-what-you-spend-on-dogfood etc"? Don't they have boys in those factories? Or are we supposed to take little girl's plea closer to heart? And why we never hear of an average wage in those countries? Is it because the poor girl won't look that poor after all and we can't have that?

Sheesh...

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Nike ought to do what other companies are already doing (Levi Strauss for one) - namely paying for the primary education of children, before signing them up to work in their factories.

BTW, Easymo, Liberals don't have a monopoly on moral indignation - check out the average conservative's view on abortion, gun control et al.

It all depends on which side of the fence you happen to occupy.

Lynx, I think you miss the point. Only a fool would be outraged at a straight wage comparison between third/developing world countries and those in the West. The greater issue is whether or not multi-national companies are making any effort to help the communities they are based in. Pehaps if they were all a bit more responsible, and contributed to community education/health programs for instance, the exploitative easpect would be a little less hard to swallow.

It's not like they can't afford to; their profit margin on the average pair of shoes is enormous.

Perhaps also they should look at the long term aspect. When a multinational company has established it's presence for a few years, and the local economy has improved because of the increased money available, wages are bound to rise. Do you reckon the company will remain in that area, when it can quickly set-up in somewhere else and be 'back to square 1' when it comes to wage payouts? I doubt it, and it would seem to me that that kind of behaviour will only give rise to a boom and bust economy.

Apparently, Nike is already looking for new labour markets to move it's set-up from Indonesia. And why shouldn't it? There is no incentive for it to remain in a particular locale and no authoritative body to set standards for its actions.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
Not quite the same Dowding.

"Conservative" ire is usually raised when someone else attempts to tell or force "Conservatives" to do (or not do) something they consider their own personal business.

"Liberal" ire is usually raised when someone else will not say or do (or not do) what the "Liberal" is telling the target audience to say or do.

 
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2001, 08:13:00 AM »
Depends what you define as your 'own personal business'. Some people think it is well within their rights to beat the living toejam out of their women - others not so. Would you therefore say the wife-beater is a conservative, and the people who disagree liberals?

Of course not; your absolute definitions are useless in trying to define such a grey area.

 
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2001, 08:47:00 AM »
Nice try Dowding.

I'll amend my statement then to include "within the law".

Obviously noone is trying to explain or justify criminal activity as defined by the country in question.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2001, 09:06:00 AM »
 Nike opening a factory in 3rd world country takes jobs away from american workers - that is a fact. But right now nobody is really concerned about american workers (except for proffessional Trade-Union rabble-rousers) - with record labor shortage, etc.

 Does Nike opening a factory in a 3rd world country in any way limits other employment opportunities present in that country? I do not see how. Could the local people ignore the Nike factory and continue living as they were if they wanted it? It seems so.

 Dowding,
 Saying that Nike has any obligation to the workers of the factories other then legal working conditions and wages for that country is the really saying that the shareholders have the obligation to bear that expence. Who  owns the shares? Pension funds, banks where we keep money, individual investors, etc. How come a Nike shareholder should subcidise a third world country while Ford shareholder doesn't? It's not like they get higher rate of return. The stock price is the same it was 5 years ago and dividend yield is less then 1% - much worse then a savings account!

 No argument, there is a need for charitable work to be done. And it is done by people through charities. Corporations (and hence their shareholders) should not be forced into charity business.

 miko

P.S. Do you think Levi Strauss expences to help people are accounted as charity? I bet they are part of their advertising/marketring expence.

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-26-2001).]

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
And who defines the law - the conservatives or the liberals?

Take slavery for instance, perfectly legal for a long time both in Europe and America. The liberals wanted it banning, does that therefore mean than the slave owners are automatically conservative in political orientation?

It does by your definition, both the original and the revision.  

Miko2d - you've hit the nail on the head. There is no incentive for any multi-national to do anything to its host country than exploit, exploit, exploit. But when the economy takes a turn for the worse, and they leave town, who is left to pick up the pieces?

The charities - organisations only a small percentage of the population contribute to.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Nice try again Dowding.

Who defines the law? Come on, you're just stirring the soup here and you know it.

I'd say the respective courts of the land, wouldn't you? They interpret the written body of law for each country.

Therefore, neither political faction or outlook if you will "defines" the law. They react to the law as interpreted by the Courts.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2001, 10:59:00 AM »
 When people want to make money in shoe business, they pull their money together, organize a shoe-making company, hire shoe-business managers and directors, trust tose to hire shoe-making specialists and menial workers and go about their lives expecting market rate of return. That is what a company or a "multi-national" corporation is - a shared ownersip.

 If the same people want to improve life of people in Malasia, they pull their money together, organise a charitable foundation, hire Malasia-helping specialists and go about  their lives expecting living conditions in Malasia to improve.

 Why mix two together?
 Why separate corporation (which is just a legal concept) from reality - people and their money? If people suck, you can say so. What does a corporation has to do with it? If I went improving life in Malasia in my company time and at my company expence, my company owners would quickly remind me that is not what they pay me for. Should it be any different with any company executives? They are hired to do a certain job. If some other job is not being done, blame people who do not hire specialists to do it.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-26-2001).]

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »
Miko, for someone who admittedly left russia because of the system that was exploiting you, you sure appear to have short memory.
Or maybe they should all try to imigrate to US as well ?



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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »
OK Toad, granted on the first point.

How about the point concerning slavery? Perfectly legal pursuit not so long ago, but by your definition, it is the conservatives who are its proponents and the liberals the faction who are interfering with personal freedom.

Surely this follows from your definition?



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2001, 11:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:
Miko, for someone who admittedly left russia because of the system that was exploiting you, you sure appear to have short memory.

 Sorry, I did not get your point? I left Russia and came to US, true. I still work for someone - so I am being exploited - more obviously at that. In Russia I could always have pretend that I was not exploited, just mismanaged.
 The reasons of my emigration are numerous and and not just economical.

 Or maybe they should all try to imigrate to US as well?

 I would surely welcome more honest, hard-working people to US, wherever they come from.

 I just do not see why a person, who's money manager invested his money in Nike should be penalized compared to a guy who's pension fund owns stock in Ford? If you are talking about legislating certain charity, action, shouldn't all chip in? Suggest openly raising taxes in US to help poor countries more.
 Or we can make a US legislation regulating the companies behaviour abroad, like minimum wages. That everybody will be in equal position and the same US consumer will pick the tab for it through slightly higher prices.

miko

Offline Toad

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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
Dowding,

Given the context of that debate, the time at which it happened, the laws that were in effect I think it would be correct to say that maintaining the status quo was a "Conservative" viewpoint and changing the status quo was a "Liberal" viewpoint.

I don't think you disagree with me here. Nor does that assessment differ from what I posted originally.

I think what you will try to do now is identify the idea that "slavery is bad" with "Conservatives were pro-slavery" therefore "being a Conservative is, was and always will be bad."

You know that is a BS debate tactic, too.

I can get Santa to confirm this   but I believe the fallacy of logic you are using to prove a point here is petitio principii, Begging the Question. The truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises.

But I think Santa is the expert on fallacies of logic.  

Now if you were trying to draw some other conclusion, please do. But please don't use fallacies of logic to do so.  
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Offline Cobra

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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2001, 12:06:00 PM »
Game, Set, Match!

Cobra

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2001, 12:14:00 PM »
No Toad, I think that you misunderstand the point I'm trying to make.

 
Quote
I think what you will try to do now is identify the idea that "slavery is bad" with "Conservatives were pro-slavery" therefore "being a Conservative is, was and always will be bad."

No Toad, that is quite definitely not why I was trying to do. Please give me some credit. My point is quite set aside from the fact that I am a liberal** - I am trying to show that your original assertion is both bogus and a trite oversimplification. I am pointing out that it is your assertion that comes to the above conclusion.

Let me put this to you; can you define "Liberalism" or "Conservatism" satisfactorily at all? I believe not - only from a particular frame of reference at a particular moment in time. So why all this 'you liberals' crap on the boards? I guess it is the lazy man's way of having a debate, and denies anyone of any individuality.

BTW, Toad a liberal? Apparently only if we were living in the 19th/18th century... quite a telling conclusion. <NB: j/k here - no offence meant whatsoever>  

** I'm liberal in certain respects, but conservative in others. I like the ideas of socialism, but only in a capitalistic scenario. I guess I must be very confused.  
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.