Author Topic: Muslims pissed..yet again  (Read 1444 times)

Offline AKH

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2006, 03:18:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Of course, Boudicca was, what, four centuries before the fall of the West Roman Empire, give or take a few decades?

I guess I don't have a good clue as to how the British view Boudicca, or how the Germans view Arminius.  I'm going on how your views are represented over here...  This could be wrong (care to enlighten me though?)

And as for the whole "Romantic View", I'm speaking solely on the battlefield...  The Romans, at the time of Boudicca, were certainly western, civilized, structured as compared to the Britons who were, essentially, a mess.  The end result?  Complete slaughter of the Britons at Watling Street.

I see a parallel in armies of the western world and "armies" of the middle east today.  I'm not trying to get into a societal debate here ;)

- Edit - and comparing a Legion (or really many other aspects of Rome) of the early Principate to a Legion around the time the west fell is, well, silly.


I don't know about enlightening you, but read this as a Briton and you may understand better:

"From the pride and arrogance of the Romans nothing is sacred; all are subject to violation; the old endure the scourge, and the virgins are deflowered. But the vindictive gods are now at hand. A Roman legion dared to face the warlike Britons: with their lives they paid for their rashness; those who survived the carnage of that day, lie poorly hid behind their entrenchments, meditating nothing but how to save themselves by an ignominious flight. From the din of preparation, and the shouts of the British army, the Romans, even now, shrink back with terror. What will be their case when the assault begins? Look round, and view your numbers. Behold the proud display of warlike spirits, and consider the motives for which we draw the avenging sword. On this spot we must either conquer, or die with glory. There is no alternative. Though a woman, my resolution is fixed: the men, if they please, may survive with infamy, and live in bondage."

Fighting a pitched battle on terrain that significantly favoured the Romans was very naive.  Irregular forces are invariably better employed attacking soft targets.

Those parallels may indeed exist.  But something to be wary of is the fact that those particular "barbarians" didn't have the technology related to modern terrorism that tend to make things go pear shaped a lot faster.

As a point of interest, how do you think Rome vs China would have panned out?
AKHoopy Arabian Knights
google koan: "Your assumptions about the lives of others are in direct relation to your naïve pomposity."

Offline Vudak

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2006, 11:45:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKH

As a point of interest, how do you think Rome vs China would have panned out?


You know, to be honest with you, I've never, ever studied China of the period...  So I really have no clue.

About the best answer I could give is I suppose it would depend on which Legions, which commander, vs. what.

I'd be willing to bet Caesar with experienced Legions of his time (who were actually paid and happy ;) ) would be able to give a Chinese army a very hard fight.

From what I've read the legions of the late republic to early principate were really something else.  The ones before and after that were slopes to the crest.
Vudak
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Offline Neubob

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2006, 12:11:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Muslims kill 3,000 of us, we kill 50,000 of them in retaliation, and they are the ones from the messed up violent culture.  :rolleyes:


Again, Funked, I must disagree, but only partially.

Yes, we vaporized more of them. Yes, we did it far more efficiently. The problem is the way we presented this action to the world. If we'd been honest, and just called it a retaliation, the effect would have been different. But, of course, we went in to help these poor souls, and managed to harm that many more of them. We weren't fanatics bent on revenge, at least not on the surface. We were, again, politically correct. But what the hell is political correctness doing in the arena of war, anyway? War is supposed to be hell, the last resort. Is there a way of going to war without actually alienating the enemy--because that's what we were trying to do. The approach was all wrong, and we'll be paying for it for years to come. And while we've swept it under the rug with our PC broom, our enemy, for all their technological backwardness, has the psychology of war down pat.

Maybe the problem is that we really are not a violent culture. Sure, we cause more than our share of destruction, but it's always under the guise of improving the world. Violence for the sake of retribution is leaving our collective consciousness, and all the while, we're bombing nations in order to enlighten them. Too much BS. The Muslims are surely guilty of putting too much faith in a god that, by all accounts, doesn't even like them very much. We, on the other hand, instead of choosing god, have chosen to buy into our own hype, and now justify anything for values that don't work anywhere but here.

I'm not promoting genocide, and I hate repeating myself, but we'd better stop treating war as the administration of antibiotics to a sick patient, and start treating it as what it really is--a bullet to the head.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 01:14:36 PM by Neubob »

Offline lukster

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2006, 12:55:55 PM »
I've yet to see any Imam denounce the violence against the christian church because of the pope's comment.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2006, 01:14:17 PM »
Hoping I might find some of the purpoted peaceful leaders of Islam calling for calm I turned to Al Jazeera. This is all I found. If anyone can find an Islamic leader calling for peace in regards to this please link it.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8A36ACA6-0CD8-4E92-9DF8-CD716EE03310.htm

"On Friday, a prominent hardline Mogadishu cleric called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill the pope for his remarks."

Offline Seagoon

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2006, 02:38:34 PM »
Hello Vudak,

Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Thanks again, Seagoon...

I actually just ordered Fergosi, Watts, and the new Spencer book that's coming out...

I realize you're going to bed and probably won't see this until tomorrow...  But your earlier choice of wording regarding Spencer, "historicity..."  Does this mean you don't find him, eh, scholarly or professional?  Or would you just not have believed him if you hadn't read the other works first/had them to cross reference?

I guess I'm just trying to get at - do his claims add up after some investigation/prior knowledge or does he take some significant liberties?


Just a quick answer again, I might be able to get online after the evening service, but I don't know if I'll be available as we seem to be inviting people over for lunch and dinner of late.

Anywho, no, what I meant was I was glad I had some background in the acadmic and Muslim history of Muhammad otherwise I might not have been inclined to believe some of the actual details of his life that Spencer has no problem conveying  - for instance marrying a six year old (Aisha) when he was 50 and then consummating the marriage when she was nine. Ordering the murder of Asma Bint Marwan as she slept with her child in her arms for the crime of composing poetry derogatory towards him, personally beheading enemies and taking their wives to bed that evening and so on. It's the kind of thing you expect from Attila the Hun but not necessarily from the founder of a religion, know what I mean?
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Offline Tac

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2006, 03:37:13 PM »
err.. you cant be serious comparing rome vs boudicca to today?

rome and the britons... or rome vs. china same time period both used the same weapons really. It was all just a matter of how their tactics. And in those times neither side bothered with 'political correctness' or 'ethics' ... if the other side did not submit you kept killing them.

Its not the same massive gap that there is today in the west. vs. islamic nutcases.

If we were the romans today and the islamic nutcases were the britons (viewed as barbarians by the romans) we wouldn't be worrying about terrorist threats. The week after 9/11 the middle east would've been carpet bombed into oblivion. The week following that it wouldve been ground forces moving in killing anything that moved. It'd be on paper view (circus maximus) too!

THATS the difference it is today and why small guerilla/terrorist tactics work. We no longer blast the snot out of the general area the perceived enemy and its supporters are in.

oh.. and i do think china wouldve creamed rome. The gods are on the side of large batallions ;)

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Muslims pissed..yet again
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2006, 05:01:02 PM »
probably not real wise to start a land war in asia now or ever.