GM, Ford discuss possible merger

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by LePaul
Well I dont mean for this to fall into a "management is just as wasteful as the union" kinda tirade.

I guess my basis for comparison is what's going on the in the airlines these days.  These folks know their company is on the brink and are conceeding a fair amount of pay, benies and even pensions in one case.  I've yet to see the UAW publically state how they'll help (asides pointing out how wasteful some areas of management are...).  

If things continue as they are, there will not be a GM and Ford.  Toyota is within striking range or surpassing GM.  Honda and Toyota are reaping record profits and looking to build more plants.  The domestics are floundering.

I'm just curious what their plan is.  The last time I saw a news clip on the UAW, they were blaming George Bush for all their woes.  Its a sad day when these guys strike out at political figures rather than face the facts...they are building vehicles people dont want and clearly...clearly...arent buying.  Maybe someday they'll face that reality.

But when I see on the evening news that each new car costs $1200 extra because of the health demands of the union...and research all the perks these guys have...I move along to another brand.

The problem is UAW, Ford and GM will blame anyone else under the sun, other than themselves.   They'll never restore the relationship they enjoyed for 40 years.  

I give them 5 years anyways.   Investors laughed when Ford sold Hertz, in an effort to "cut costs".   They gained NO GROUND from this move.   Now, Ford wants tor break apart the PAG (Premier Automotive Group) located in Irvine, Ca.   Aston Martin, Land Rover, and Volvo are now on the chopping block.  

At some point piss poor Managerial skills need to come into play.   If Ford sells Volvo, I give them a shorter life expectancy.   That is the problem with Corporate America today, noone will take accountability for the piss poor Executive bodies in most Corporations.  

The US Automotive Industry is gone forever, and will never see the greener fields of the past.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Scherf
Jeez,

Craptacular car company A merges with craptacular car company B.

That's sure to fix things!

Well the recalls will certainly be spectacular

[wooley]

Imagine the 'merger' (read 'takeover') between GM and Renault-Nissan goes ahead.

You'll have GM as a division of a company run by and arab with headquarters in Paris and Tokyo.

An American Revolution indeed

[NATEDOG]

Originally posted by ChickenHawk
According to Wikipedia, there have been 1,024 car companies in the U.S. that are now defunct.  List

How long until there is only one left?  Kind of reminds me of that movie Demolition Man, where the only restaurant left in the future is Taco Bell.

very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.

You'd be surprised how bad of shape they really are in.

[Airscrew]

Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.

thats true, also alot of those early companies were started out of former carraiage and bicycle shops, repair shops and only produced a limited number of automobiles and some didnt even last a couple of years.  Those that did survive got killed off during the depression.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by LePaul

Well I dont mean for this to fall into a "management is just as wasteful as the union" kinda tirade.

I guess my basis for comparison is what's going on the in the airlines these days.  These folks know their company is on the brink and are conceeding a fair amount of pay, benies and even pensions in one case.

Yes, and at the same time, top executives are getting raises, what's the lesson here?

But when I see on the evening news that each new car costs $1200 extra because of the health demands of the union...and research all the perks these guys have...I move along to another brand.

Yet, it has nothing to do with top executives getting rediculous bonuses for losing millions of dollars so they can have a nice nest egg to retire on when the company goes belly up

Yeah, blame the blue collar worker who has to put his house up to put his kids through college

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.

The dates listed is when the car company started, not when it ceased to exist.  I thought the same thing until I started clicking on the individual companies to find out how long they survived.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Sixpence

Yeah, blame the blue collar worker who has to put his house up to put his kids through college

When that "blue collar worker" is getting $40+ an hour to air wrench a part to a car, or they sit in a dayroom waiting for a position to open up, I cry shenanigans

They also cry foul that they have to ...gasp...contribute to their own healthcare and retirement plans.  I mean, c'mon!

And when their Union insists they deserve more and fault the President for their woes...I say they live in some sort of alternate universe.

But that's ok.  This tactic of always pointing that management is worse just gives me more reason to buy elsewhere.  While you guys duke it out over whose the greater evil, your company will fall around you while you stand there and point at each other.

Its sad and ironic to watch from the outside.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by LePaul
When that "blue collar worker" is getting $40+ an hour to air wrench a part to a car, or they sit in a dayroom waiting for a position to open up, I cry shenanigans

They also cry foul that they have to ...gasp...contribute to their own healthcare and retirement plans.  I mean, c'mon!

And when their Union insists they deserve more and fault the President for their woes...I say they live in some sort of alternate universe.

But that's ok.  This tactic of always pointing that management is worse just gives me more reason to buy elsewhere.  While you guys duke it out over whose the greater evil, your company will fall around you while you stand there and point at each other.

Its sad and ironic to watch from the outside.

Yet executives put millions in their private retirement accounts while the company loses millions. Why should the guy making $40.00 an hour take a pay cut when the guys making 17 million a year don't?

I make $21.00 an hour, pay almost 100.00 bucks a week for health care, have a 2k a month mortgage, and have to work many OT hours to make ends meet and pray to God that the OT doesn't dry up. Yet when the price of a stamp goes up, "it's the union workers making too much money" while we are top loaded with overpaid management

Sell that anti union crap somewhere else

[LePaul]

Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere  

I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.

You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere.  That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it.  Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet.  Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.

Follow?

[superpug1]

Honestly...As long as GM survives to release the new camaro, and get the Holden vehicle architecture out in america they may save themselves. Holden in australia is supposedly a good company. However, as far as im concerned, aside from the halfton and up trucks and the corvette, GM doesnt make many spectacular vehicles. I really dont know how much id care if they went under after i got my new camaro. but i want that car soo bad. Jet black, red interior, 6 spd manual, LS2...

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by LePaul
Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere  

I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.

You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere.  That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it.  Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet.  Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.

Follow?

So tell me, what are us "average joes" supposed to work for? Less so executives can build multi million dollar retirements? Tell me, what do you think the average joe with an average family and an average house and bills supposed to work for?

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by LePaul
Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere  

I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.

You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere.  That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it.  Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet.  Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.

Follow?

I'm done.   You have no clue for which you are speaking of.   You base your "opinions" on conjecture.   Wait I forgot, you're gonna be right.   Keep blaming the UAW (they are hiring Temp workers now through the UAW with NO Benefits making $18.50/hr).   So this now puts the kibosh on your theory.  

It's folks like you that allow "Enron" to happen.       I'm sure you can find a way to blame the Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC unions for it's demise, eh?

[FrodeMk3]

LePaul, Over half of the cars that both GM and Ford make, are actually built outside of the U.S. Many in Mexico. For about $2.50 a day Absolutely no Benefits. No EPA, No Workmen's comp, No OSHA, No nothing.

     Add on top of that, If you believe what anyone in management says in either company, You do so at your own risk. They spend millions in campaign contributions alone.Half the money these company's make, is not even taxable by the U.S. because the business is done outside of our borders.

     On final note: Toyota and Lexus plants inside of the U.S. are run by U.A.W. workers. I don't recall either company having problems because of U.A.W. workers.