happy consititution day

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by JB88
that's not the point.  

is that power granted to the government or to the states by the consitution as it stands?

The power to spend federal funds any way it wants?  Interstate Highway funds are for Interstates, and must follow certain design rules.  If it is spent wrong, federal highway funds are held hostage.  If you want to build a highway differently, pay for it yourself.

As far as what you guys are saying about the states power to tax being usurped....  You must not live in Oregon... This state seems to have plenty of power to do that.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by JB88
from the withered fields:  

Today is Constitution Day.  Thanks mainly to Sen Byrd, since 1997, if you receive US governement money you must teach about the Constitution on Sept 17th (Sept 18th this year, as the 17th is a Sunday).  This includes all local school districts.
So ... in honor of Constitution Day, Byrd and the legislature dictate what schools, K-thru-12 and colleges, should teach ... rather than leave that up to, say, local school boards and academic councils (which is, amusingly, rather unconstitutional ... but oh well, the constitution hasn't been anything but a piece of paper since at least the Civil War if not as early as the Hamilton presidency).

- t.f.s.

Exactly whats is unconsitutional about it?

[dhaus]

I'd feel a lot better if Bush and Cheney got a refresher course on the constitution.  

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Hamilton was one of my favorite presidents.

He was almost as good as Franklin.

Prefered Josiah "Jed" Bartlet myself but Matt Santos may suprise me yet.....

           

As to the discussion: what part of the Constitution requires or protects our rights that the United State's Education system should fall below that of the level of Indonesia and that all our children should be coddled idiots secured in their own, albeit unjustified, sense of self worth..... but unable to find the United States on a world map?

Yes...teach the Constitution.  Teach the Bill of Rights.  The Amendments.  Teach them that they live in a REBUBLIC and not a democracy and all that that entails.  Discuss politics.  And parties.  Political views.  The issues.   Argue the issues.  Maybe if the next generation or two were not politically inept, we could get a decent government to lead the country in a couple generations.   Or decades.....centuries......

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by dhaus
I'd feel a lot better if Bush and Cheney got a refresher course on the constitution.  

Furgitabootit!

Its all about being "right".  Be it compenativeness, stubborness, disconnect with reality, ego, arrogance, whatever.... they will never change course becasue they will never admit to the mistake (any of them...take your pick).

Of course I love the charges they make that any attempt to actually discuss the issues in a democratic republic is treasonous, lending aid to the enemy, and should never occur ....that is sweet.  BTW, this all smacks of something sometimes called facism for those of you just tuning in.  

Fascism is a radical political ideology that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.......
Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic; in the examples given, by way of a strong, single-party government for enacting laws and a strong, sometimes brutal militia or police force for enforcing them. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader --- ("the American people want to win", "victory", "bad men want to hurt you", "what we did was within the law", "congress told me I could" ----, leading to a cult of personality and unquestioned obedience to orders.

"Welcome to Amerika... a quasi-fascist paradise...your papers please...."

[JB88]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The power to spend federal funds any way it wants?  Interstate Highway funds are for Interstates, and must follow certain design rules.  If it is spent wrong, federal highway funds are held hostage.  If you want to build a highway differently, pay for it yourself.

As far as what you guys are saying about the states power to tax being usurped....  You must not live in Oregon... This state seems to have plenty of power to do that.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

still.

where in the constitution does it say that the federal government can require the teaching of a specific subject on a specific day in exchange for it's provisions?

[john9001]

there is no such thing as "federal money ", it's our tax money dammit.

[lasersailor184]

JB88, I know this is going to be hard for you to understand...


The Federal Government can choose to or not to give money to whoever it wants.  Because of this, they can tell the states recieving the money to spend it a certain way.

The threat is that if the states don't spend it a certain way, they will no longer recieve federal money.  





Jesus, it's like teaching calculus to a ****in beagle.

[JB88]

it is not hard for me to understand your logic, it's just that i do not agree.  

show me where, in the constitution, it says that the federal government has any jurisdiction over what states must teach in the schools.

i know of no provision in the constitution which says that it can.

[lasersailor184]

JB88, I ALREADY EXPLAINED IT!

Are you seriously that thick that you do not understand the power they have with their own money?

[JB88]

i understand that they have lots of power sir.

i will ask again.

where in the constitution does it say that the us government will provide for the welfare of the state so long as the state adheres to federal policy in matters not given it by the constitution?

show me.  then call me thick.

[DREDIOCK]

Where in the consitution does it say it cant?

but ti would see that logic would dictate that if money is given for a specific thing.
Then certain items within that could be mandated

Its like saying I'll give you money to buy a car. So long as that car has certain items in it.

If you dont want the car to have those items. Dont take the money.





No. Im not buying you a car;)

[JB88]

yes.  i see.

and insofar as politics are concerned one could even appreciate the level of strongarm that the federal level can muster relative to the states...but such powers (the power to mandate the teaching of specific subjects) are not (to the best of my knowledge) specifically granted to the federal government by the constitution.  

----


Amendment X

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

thus, it is within the rights of the states to refuse to teach specific subjects even if at odds with the federal government which is given no constitutional recourse for withholding aid or fair allocation to the states."


"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"


uniform being the key word here.  common being the other.  it suggests that thier cannot be an un uniform imposition of federal funding...it is not required that a state to accept specific terms for reciept of funds in exchange for matters which are not specifically allocated as the jurisdiction of the federal branch.

again.  i am asking that someone, anyone, show me where in the constitution is says that the federal governent can impose its will by withholding the fair distribution of funds.

THAT SAID...do i think that it is a big deal??!  

nope.

i would prefer that all americans be familiarized with that wonderful document.

but that doesn't mean that it is constitutional to require it's teaching.

it is not.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by JB88
but that doesn't mean that it is constitutional to require it's teaching.

it is not.

It is not required.  

It is a condition to the acceptance of federal funding.  Don't take the money, teach what you want.

Originally posted by JB88
uniform being the key word here. common being the other.

uniform has to do with "all Duties, Imposts and Excises"

common has to do with Defence.

Perhaps your school should have required a class in the constitution.

[JB88]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It is not required.  

It is a condition to the acceptance of federal funding.  Don't take the money, teach what you want.



uniform has to do with "all Duties, Imposts and Excises"

common has to do with Defence.

Perhaps your school should have required a class in the constitution.

again.  and i repeat.  this does not give in any way give the federal government the power to levy it's own teaching agendas to the schools.  it niether condones it or condemns it.  therefore, it "technically" falls to the states.  

perhaps i have been unclear.

will somebody pleeeease show me where in the constitution it states that the federal government can withhold money conditionally?

if i am wrong, and you can show me where such transactions are permissive, i will gladly relent.  

promise.