Author Topic: Jews - lot of text.  (Read 1583 times)

Offline moose

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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2001, 11:08:00 AM »
i think its time for some.......


beer!
<----ASSASSINS---->

Offline Apache

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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2001, 11:11:00 AM »
Quote
We are at this times able to create a human on our own, without god...

So what advantage god have???

Truly the end of times draws near.

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
Well, we've been down the IQ road before Miko  :)
Let me ask you this question.

Europian Jews date couple thousands years back, you'll agree with me when i say that they lived in just about every corner of the europe.
As you noted yourself, they integrated in some cultures more or less, but overall in general they did not create totally separate cultural casts. I say this from personal experiance of having lot of uncles and aunts who are cathlics married to jew, or vice versa.

( let me underline that in my mind Judeism is a religion not a race )

Now, if you agree with me on the fact that europian jews have lived and assimilated with europans of all backgrounds for 2000 years, then i dare you to give me a example of "pure europian jew", define his genetic characteristics, physical ones...
How many of those you run the tests on happend to have grand mother who might have been russian, german, polish, french ? who accepted her husband's faith ? Or other way around ?


Bottom line, i agree with DejaVu.
There is no Jewish race, there are people who choice to have jeduism as their faith.
I can be a jew tomorrow if i choose to do so, will that change my genetic make up ?

Who idea smacks of rasism, and i cannot conciously agree with it.

I will give you one thing though: Jewish communities all over the world are absolutely world champions at mutual support, helping out, keeping together.
I don't mean this in derogatory fashion, quite an opposite. It is admirable that one would help others of same faith/national background. We all should take good example from that....
They also have a great tradidtion of education, which again, is commandable.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2001, 12:52:00 PM »
First, What Hang said!

Second, about the IQ issue. The jury is out on that question due to lack of relevant and double blind research testing. Dunno what my "IQ" is and don't care. I tested for entry into a Masters program and landed in the 95th percentile of cantidates. That test score and a dollar get me a coffee at the local diner........   :rolleyes:

Third, debating about this type of issue is about as relevant as the older debate..... Lessee what was that one?????

OH YEAH!!! Just how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin???? Given it is a straight pin with a 1mm head.

PS. It doesn't matter so much about how MUCH intelligence you have. Instead it matters much more how much you USE the intellegence you have.

 

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2001, 01:30:00 PM »
I'm just glad one can be stupid and still be Italian  :)

IQ = -50 and dropping everytime I read an IQ thread...
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Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Quote
I'm just glad one can be stupid and still be Italian

A man wanted to marry a Polish gal.  When he went to her father to ask for permission, the father said he could not allow his daughter to marry a man that wasn't polish.

Not to be detered, the man went to a doctor and asked if there was a way to make him Polish.  The doctor said there was, but it involved removing 1/4 of his brain.  The man, lost in his love for this woman, agreed to have the surgery.

After the surgery, the man regained consciousness as the doctor nervously observed.  The doctor immediately informed him that he was going to be alright, but there had been a minor problem with the surgery.  Instead of removing 1/4 of his brain, they'd inadvertantly removed 1/2 of his brain.

The man simply replied "MOMMA MIA!"

AKDejaVu

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:


A man wanted to marry a Polish gal.  When he went to her father to ask for permission, the father said he could not allow his daughter to marry a man that wasn't polish.

Not to be detered, the man went to a doctor and asked if there was a way to make him Polish.  The doctor said there was, but it involved removing 1/4 of his brain.  The man, lost in his love for this woman, agreed to have the surgery.

After the surgery, the man regained consciousness as the doctor nervously observed.  The doctor immediately informed him that he was going to be alright, but there had been a minor problem with the surgery.  Instead of removing 1/4 of his brain, they'd inadvertantly removed 1/2 of his brain.

The man simply replied "MOMMA MIA!"

AKDejaVu

So, did you still get to marry her?  :)
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2001, 02:47:00 PM »
For Fishy:

Whats the diffrence between a jew and a canoe?

The canoe tips.

 :)

---

An american retiree returns from a trip to europe. When asked about his experiences in the old country he replies: "Bah. No great shakes. The place was filled with foreginers."

----

As a sign of the times, we can tell that the economy is in a downturn.. I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets today.
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »
Why do Rabbi's like to do circumscisions?

(They get to keep the tips)
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Dune

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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Rabbi walks into a taxidermy shop.  He tells the guy he has saved up all the foreskins from his career and wants them turned into something.

The taxidermist asks what and the rabbi tells him to surprise him.

A couple of weeks later the rabbi comes back and the taxidermist hands him a wallet.

The rabbi asks, "Is that all?  I thought it would be something a lot bigger?"

The taxidermist replies, "It's a wallet now, but if you rub it, it turns into a suitcase."

Offline DamnedBuzzard

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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »
Just wanderin around yaknow when I ran across this thread of unbelieveable drivel. I wasn't gonna reply till y'all started tellin jokes at th end.

So, two things: 1) there are only three races, Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid, all the rest that are wrongly classified as races are in fact ethnicities.

2) a joke

A Rabbi and a Priest are walking down the street having a conversation when the Priest notices a very cute boy of about 8 years approaching them on the street. The Priest turns to the Rabbi and says, "my, what a cute little boy. Let's diddly him. "

The Rabbi thinks for a second and says, "out of what?"

Im done
Buzzard

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2001, 02:43:00 AM »
I'll add my own $1 here.

Robert Sternberg is a man who's done much in the area of psychometric (i.e the measuring of mental abilities). He has constructed several tests - when he found out his previous ones were biased, he made new ones, yet he doesn't seem too happy about it. In Skeptic's magazine, he was interviewd about tthe book The Bell Curve, from which Mikod has gotten most of his info.

Worth noticing is that that book was written for the media - not for sicentists. It tries to portray that scientists are in agreement of its conclusions, but the truth is different. I'll quote from the interview.

Sternberg: I think that there is definitely some heritability of intelligence in the White population. Almost every psychologist believes there is some
heritability of IQ and I agree. But the public may not understand just what that means. If you accept the use of the heritability statistic, about .5 is probably
right.


Skeptic: Can you explain wherein the general public's conception or the media's description of what is meant by heritability is wrong?

Sternberg: The commonplace understanding of heritability often doesn't realize that heritability is calculated within a range of environments, at a given time,
for a given population. So heritability is not the same in every population. In fact there is wide variation in populations over time and space. It is not a fixed
statistic. The value you obtain (for heritability) depends on the population, where it is, and when it is. But the major misunderstanding relates to the role of
the environment and to the role of teachability. With respect to teachability, even if heritability is fairly high, it does not mean that we cannot modify
intelligence.



Skeptic: They do review studies that deal with race differences.

Sternberg: Yes, but there is evidence that they do not review at all. There is nothing in the book that suggests that race differences are genetic. They even say
that. But what they do say is that is what we would infer given the data, even though probably somewhere else, they would have one sentence to the effect that
there is one study. And they don't cite a number of studies that suggest that race differences are not genetic.


Ah yes, agreement amongst sicentists. I'd call it an intellectually dishonest work.



Skeptic: Which studies don't Herrnstein and Murray cite?

Sternberg: Well, one study that they cite and distort the results of is the Scarr-Weinberg study. What Scarr-Weinberg and several people have done is look at blood groups (associated with Whiteness or Blackness), or skin color, and looked at the correlation with IQ. The typical correlation is about .15, suggesting
that you are accounting for about 1-2% of the variance. And even that less than 2% could be due to the way darker versus lighter people are treated. So when you look at the studies that have been done, they counter-indicate the conclusion that Herrnstein and Murray draw.


Ouch.


Skeptic: You say that Herrnstein and Murray build their whole argument on the (often wrong) interpretations of statistics. Can you be more specific?

Sternberg: One example is taking studies that show that within group heritabilities have nothing to do with between group heritabilities and then insinuating
that they do. Another example is the issue of causation and correlation. They know, and anyone who takes statistics knows, you can't draw any real causal
conclusions from correlational data. Lots of things correlate with lots of things, IQ being one of them. To draw causal inferences from correlational data,
which is what all their data are, is statistically incorrect. Another thing that many may not realize is that virtually all their data are based on one study, the
National Longitudinal Study of Youth (NLSY), which was not a study that was particularly representative of the United States population.

Skeptic: In what sense?

Sternberg: The mean was low. I think the mean IQ in that group was around 94 and the standard deviation was not 15 or 16. It was not a typical US
population. Another thing they do, in comparing correlations, is that they don't take into account the reliability and precision of the measures being used. For
example, almost every measure we use is a proxy for something else. If you ask yourself, "How good is 'number of years of schooling' for measuring how
much education a person has?" it's not a very good measure. Two people could each have 16 years of schooling, but if you compare somebody who was a
straight A student in a really good college with someone who was a D student in a really poor college, the number of years of education will be the same but
their educational attainments will be vastly different. So as a measure of how much schooling you have really had, years of education is extremely imprecise
and it's not going to look very good in correlational analyses. In contrast, IQ is a pretty good measure of that narrow construct, compared to the other types of measurement that we have. That will make IQ look more powerful than the other measures because the other measures are such crude proxies for the
constructs that they are trying to measure.


Yay.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2001, 02:46:00 AM »
b]Skeptic: How do you square that with, for example, Herman Spitz (who signed the The Wall Street Journal statement) or even Zigler, who is one of the
gurus of Head Start, who says, "It does great things for keeping children in school and out of jail, but IQ isn't something that we can really move around a lot,
we just don't know how to do it." Again, there appears to be a contradiction between what the authorities say.

Sternberg: I don't think there would be that big a difference between me and Zigler. You can get some increases. I don't think we know how to get really
large, long term increases. On the other hand, we're talking about work that's been around for maybe 30 years. If you ask, "how far had medicine gone in 30
years after its inception, say in Ancient Greece in terms of curing illness," it wasn't that hot either. We have just started on this kind of work. You can't expect
that in a fairly short amount of time we will have figured exactly what to do. This field just isn't at that point yet[/b]

Ayup.

About experiments in general:


Sternberg: When I was very young, I did poorly on IQ tests because I was test anxious. The result was that teachers had low expectations for me and I wanted
to please my teachers. So I met their low expectations. They were happy and I was happy that they were happy. I've been there and I've seen it happen to lots
of people I know. I got over my test anxiety and then did extremely well on tests. All of a sudden the expectations were high. To a large extent it becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy, either way. So when you tell me that IQ predicts later success, sure it does. You get low scores on your tests, everything starts to change in your life and you're on a downhill slide. It's not a controlled experiment, because the very score itself is having an effect on where you're going to be allowed to go.

 I'll have more.

On a sidenote. According to the theory of evolution, hwich basically is change of allele frequency in a population over time, change does take place, but it takes a significant period of time. 2000 years usually ain't enough to do it, unless you selectively breed a species. To suggest that because a group of humans have studied more for the last 1000 years and therefore, as a group, are more intelligent than another is not correct.

Will have more on the Bell Curve shortly.

You might also check out http://slate.msn.com/?id=2416  for an article with references to studies which are clear indicators regarding the correctness of the authors conclusions. The authors have a tendency to use a technique where you first present a lot of evidence - then make a huge jump and come to a concluions that is half based on the evidence, and half based on nothing. Also, the evidence itself needs to be evaluated for correctness.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »
OK, guys.

 Thanks for your attention.

 The good news is that whatever we think or consider true does not really have any bearing on whether some phenomenon really exists.
 The matters are only different when we try to act on the information we believe true when it isn't. Most of the time acting on incorrect information does not bring immediate disasterous results - then it would be be too simple to tell which way is up.  :)

 Sometime predictions can be made and the outcome examined, but in social sciences it may take years/generations and by that time no one remembers the original prophets and the whole thing starts over.

 Some people insist that intelligence is real and inheritable trait, that it is strongly corellated with achievement, that races and ethnicities are natural phenomenon, that being a jew is an ethnicity.
 Other consider those views false. Obviously both cannot be right.

 Naturally, my views do not agree with views of many others. I do not really have any desire to change anyone's view here - at least not if it involves much effort. After all that effort would be just me retyping hundreds of pages that anyone can read himself.

 If you do not agree with the summaries I made in my post, it may be even better reason for you to read the books I referred to.

 I am not going to argue the points here. I do regret that some people resorted to personal and most untruthfull attack in this thread:
 AKDejaVu: That is the most unsubstatiated load of bigot diatribe I have ever seen before in my life.
 It is your choice to call me whatever you wish for citing the view you find not to your liking. But you can hardly call my statements "unsubstantiated" when I provided reference to books totalling about 1500 pages - both with extensive bibliography section.

 In fact I freely admit that I may be wrong and I hoped to get referrals to good books that argue the issues to the contrary.

 StSanta - thanks for the reference to Sternberg. I will look him up.
 You are wrong about me getting most of my info from "The Bell Curve". It is a book directed to non-professional reader but hardly "for the media". It only covers one issue based mostly on one survey - the social implications of intelligence. It is only 800 pages, so in the first chapter it just lists the assumptions they base their research on. Jencen's work is much more definitive (and boring) in covering those basics.

 Regards,
 miko

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Miko,

Because it was written down does not make it substantiated.  Learn that please.  Learn it soon.

Also, find a way that inteligence can be measured accurately across any cultural divide.  Please.

Until then.. it is bogus data.  You cannot average the inteligence of a race and present it as if its evidence of anything.  IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.  The fact that it is even attempted will always be representative of bigotry and racism.  Learn that too.  Please.

AKDejaVu