Author Topic: It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground  (Read 2712 times)

Offline tedrbr

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2006, 05:53:30 PM »
:huh

This is sad.

Torture is notoriously inaccurate and fallible.... you torment someone long enough they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear, or they build a resistence to the treatment.   Whether right or wrong by whatever justification you care to name....... and I'm a big believer in the DIS-proportional response, but I'm against torture for the most part....... the real fact is that torture is largely inefficient and ineffective in addition to being a public relations and political nightmare.

In a word: It's stupid.

Mechanical interrogation and the pharmacopeia have come such a LONG way since sodium pentathol (sodium thiopental), thiopental, thiopentone sodium, or trapanal........ that combined with a controlled environment, the power of suggestion, a polygraph machine and a capable operator, some time (which they have) and a well thought out interrogation plan, you should be able to find out whatever a subject knows.

There is still a risk to the subject's health, depending on the drugs used and their health to begin with...most notedly would probably be heart problems....maybe respiratory as well..... but it's not anywhere on the level like "water boarding".  Probably a bit more expensive as well.... but chump change as compared to information that can be gathered.  And far more effective and reliable.  You work on the subject's mind instead of their body.

Only thing I can think of is either the people in charge, or the ones conducting the torture, LIKE to do it.  They are getting in touch with their inner-nazi.  Nero is running the store once more.  

(The same people that decided accusing a Canadian citizen, Maher Arar, of being a terrorists with no supporting evidence (just kneejerk inuendo), seizing him as he passed through the U.S., questioning him for 12 days, deporting him to Syria (this is a Canadian citizen here) to be tortured for 10 months, and leaving it up to Canada to spring him after their mistake becomes clear, and still claiming that "the U.S. did the right thing".  Fear your government lads! )


Are there situations that may require it?  Sure, there are usually exceptions to any rule, but I don't see a need to codify it into law.  I need to know where the bomb with the 10 minute timer is from the guy who just planted it, I'll shoot him in the knee just to get his undivided attention for starters..... I don't need a law to give me permission.... I'll take my chances later if I survive the bomb.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2006, 06:02:55 PM »
You people are assuming that this is a conventional symmetrical war with a conventional enemy. No Geneva convention protection is afforded any of our personnel when captured by these jihadis.

I am not advocating actual torture by any stretch, however, I am saying that loud music, semi extreme temperatures, and sleep deprivation does not constitute torture.
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Offline Leslie

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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2006, 06:15:29 PM »
Find out what they like to drink and get them drunk.  Be all friendly like and they'll talk.  Nothing torturous about that and everyone has a good time.  Of course the New York Times would report that in a negative way if such a thing existed and they found out about it.  

I think what the left wants is for these detainees to be given a day in court or released.  Is this not the crux of the matter, and the torture business a diversion to create impasse?  Limit the CIA. The situation will be hold detainees indefinitely (can't do that), kill them (can't do that), or release them (can't do that.)  What to do?

I'm all for letting the CIA do its job responsibly as professionals and leave them alone to do their job.  



Les

Offline Wolf14

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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2006, 06:15:30 PM »
Just give them peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches or chocolatechip cookies and I guess they'll tell us everything they know since we are being so nice to them.

I may comeoff wrong saying this, but to me anybody that tresspasses against US like those did or wish to do cease being human. I see them as nothing more than animals and rabid animals at that, and in the case of any rabid animal, you put them down.

It makes me want to puke that the interrogaters cant do what they need to do to get the information they need today when the attack is going to happen tomorrow, but the prisoner who we know has the information, knows that all he has to do is wait because all we can do to him is give him milk and cookies and a private pot to pop a squat on.


My god when is all the liberal lovey duvey, we are civilized and above that type of behavior, crap going to stop? Some government officials need their sign.

***quick edit***

Full blown torture to me leads in death and in some ways I dont want that becasue I want those sorry pukes to witness their failures. I say let them (Muslim terrorist) sleep with pigs for a few days, play loud music, freeze them, slap them, do anything that needs to be done that doesnt kill or physicaly maime them and see what they say. Mentaly they may be a tad screwed up, but they aint dead. They may wish they were, but they are not.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 06:19:58 PM by Wolf14 »

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2006, 06:55:55 PM »
I think the term *torture* is being applied a bit to liberally.

I do not consider semi-xtreme temperatures, sleep deprivation (Navy SEALs are introduced to sleep deprivation during their SEAL training early and often), an open handed slap to the face, mocking a prisoner, making them share toilets (how many of you share a toilet with a family member?).....I don't consider those things torture.
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2006, 08:03:02 PM »
Number of US service men killed in the custody of Iraqis.....
Number of Iraqis killed in the custody of americans......

And the Japanese dont deny that they tortured, starved cut up and ate and then killed US service men. They just dont like to talk about it. Its impolite.

Offline superpug1

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« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2006, 08:03:31 PM »
It is not torture in the classical sense...Nor is this war in the classical sense. New war, new strategies, new ways of thinking. We cannot think ourselves so high on a mountain of morality that nothing can touch us, and we MUST not be like the romans or the nazis and see these people as animals to be slaughtered.
We cannot treat these prisoners like we treated prisoners in WW1 and 2, and korea, expecting to have our men and women treated the same. It doesnt work like that with these people. They are from a drastically different culture, and have a drastically different set of morals and ethics. Inversely it would be counter productive to treat them as they treat us due to world opinion. As much as some dislike it, that still counts. We will have to find new ways in the vast middle ground, but for now what we have must be sufficiant.:confused:

Offline tedrbr

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2006, 08:09:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I think the term *torture* is being applied a bit to liberally.

I do not consider semi-xtreme temperatures, sleep deprivation (Navy SEALs are introduced to sleep deprivation during their SEAL training early and often), an open handed slap to the face, mocking a prisoner, making them share toilets (how many of you share a toilet with a family member?).....I don't consider those things torture.


And if Prisoners in the United States were ever forced into the living conditions the Army and Marine personnel do on a regular basis.... they would have a pretty good court case to sue someone!

Military personnel are held to a much lower standard in many ways, and a much higher standard in others, and for such stellar wages...... but if we couldnt take a joke, we should not have joined......

Offline tedrbr

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2006, 08:13:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Leslie


I'm all for letting the CIA do its job responsibly as professionals and leave them alone to do their job.  



CIA .....responsibly...... professionals......   :confused:  :confused:  



:confused:



Nope....I still dont understand.....


And for those of us that have been around long enough to know better......

:rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2006, 09:53:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tedrbr
And if Prisoners in the United States were ever forced into the living conditions the Army and Marine personnel do on a regular basis.... they would have a pretty good court case to sue someone!

Military personnel are held to a much lower standard in many ways, and a much higher standard in others, and for such stellar wages...... but if we couldnt take a joke, we should not have joined......


Not sure what you are getting at here. If you are trying to say the things listed in this thread are torture......re-read the stuff I copied from Wikipedia, none of this stuff is *severe*.
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Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2006, 10:25:52 PM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14897315/?GT1=8506

"Coffin-sized dungeon
Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released"
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Offline Neubob

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2006, 10:31:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Number of US service men killed in the custody of Iraqis.....
Number of Iraqis killed in the custody of americans......


Perhaps it wouldn't be insignificant to compare percentages, not just raw numbers.

Offline tedrbr

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It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2006, 02:38:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Not sure what you are getting at here. If you are trying to say the things listed in this thread are torture......re-read the stuff I copied from Wikipedia, none of this stuff is *severe*.


It was a reply to your comment about what SEALs, (or anyone who goes through SERE -- survival, evasion, resistance and escape -- training for that matter) go through compared to the "lighter" treatments given to those prisoners..... military personnel and those being detained are not held to similar standards.

Two different standards... press, politics, and the public will not let you compare them like that.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2006, 04:11:01 PM »
I hope it won't surprise anyone that I agree with Eagl that torture should have no place in the American military or in intelligence gathering, and that there is never a justification for employing evil means to try to accomplish a "good end" - obviously I can use biblical analogies to make this point, but let me use an example from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Using torture in the end, would have been like trying to use Sauron's Ring "for good." The wiser members of the Fellowship knew that there was no using something inherently evil for good without becoming corrupted yourself.

The same is true of torture, the more inured we become to it and the more we justify it, the more we slide into the evil pragmatism that seems to define our age. Also the more we become comfortable with it, the less dramatic is the difference between the worldview of the West and the worldview of the Jihadis. God willing this isn't simply a war to maintain our self-determination, but rather it really is a conflict where good and evil, justice and injustice, freedom and totalitarianism are once again locked in battle. I pray we never come to the point where all we fight over is the freedom to do the evil of our own choosing rather than having to do only that evil that others want us to.

Anywho, I think Rick Phillips (ex US Army Major and West Point Instructor) did a good job of tackling why torture is always wrong at our recent conference. The MP3 of his lecture is available here but if you are only interested in the section specifically dealing with the ethics of torture, start listening at roughly minute 20.
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Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2006, 04:59:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14897315/?GT1=8506

"Coffin-sized dungeon
Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released"


You guys keep bringing this guy up as if it's the norm.  Mistake yes, NORMAL, NO!

It only takes one mistake in the opposite (IE letting a bad guy go) to wreak thousands of possible deaths.  

If you think a belly slap or shirt grab is torture you need to check out some jihadi websites.