It’s true. We’ve lost the moral high ground

[Gunslinger]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1874823,00.html

The techniques sought by the CIA are: induced hypothermia; forcing suspects to stand for prolonged periods; sleep deprivation; a technique called “the attention grab” where a suspect’s shirt is forcefully seized; the “attention slap” or open hand slapping that hurts but does not lead to physical damage; the “belly slap”; and sound and light manipulation.

Several of those techniques chime with information gleaned about interrogation methods used against some serious terror suspects. The New York Times recently reported that Abu Zubaydah, the first al-Qaida member captured after the September 11 attacks, was kept in a freezing cell until he went blue, and later assailed with loud Red Hot Chili Peppers music.

LOL  

[Meatwad]

CIA must of got them actions off the Three Stooges.  Looks like the CIA is now ran by Moe, with Curly, Shemp, and Larry following behind

[DREDIOCK]

Shouldnt be worried about any moraldamn highground to begin with when dealing with these animals.

[aztec]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Shouldnt be worried about any moraldamn highground to begin with when dealing with these animals.

 

Well dred supposedly that is just one of the things that sets America apart from many Nations. You go ahead and blather on though.

[eagl]

Honestly, it sounds like torture to me.  Yea taken one incident all by itself, it's no big deal, but over time there is no term that describes it other than torture.

Everything on that list was given to me as a examples of what the "other guys" (ie. enemy) did to Vietnam POWs, and that I could expect at least that level of treatment if captured.

Hearing that we do it makes me f**king sick, and I just know that it'll come back to us in the form of increased torture used against US servicemen/women when they're captured.  We were taught in basic training that the ends do not justify those means, yet now our government is going directly against training given to all US military members, doing things that we've been told all along are illegal and horrible.

So who's fault is it when military members figure that all the other crap they heard was "illegal" doesn't matter either?  Maybe rape and murder is ok, since torture is ok now, right?

Makes me want to puke.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by aztec
Well dred supposedly that is just one of the things that sets America apart from many Nations. You go ahead and blather on though.

Only recently. The last 20-30 years or so.
We've become soft and sqeemish.

Its becomming a glaring weakness, not a strength.
And they know that.

so yea. I'll blather on.

[deSelys]

Originally posted by eagl
Honestly, it sounds like torture to me.  Yea taken one incident all by itself, it's no big deal, but over time there is no term that describes it other than torture.

Everything on that list was given to me as a examples of what the "other guys" (ie. enemy) did to Vietnam POWs, and that I could expect at least that level of treatment if captured.

Hearing that we do it makes me f**king sick, and I just know that it'll come back to us in the form of increased torture used against US servicemen/women when they're captured.  We were taught in basic training that the ends do not justify those means, yet now our government is going directly against training given to all US military members, doing things that we've been told all along are illegal and horrible.

So who's fault is it when military members figure that all the other crap they heard was "illegal" doesn't matter either?  Maybe rape and murder is ok, since torture is ok now, right?

Makes me want to puke.

Respect

[Eagler]

when we start slicing their heads off during prime time tele, I'll start worrying about it.
until then, if we have a known AQ operative, anything goes to protect those they are plotting to destroy ... they brought it down on themselves.
cold temps, loud music ..omg the "toture" - what a joke. Toture to me would be cutting their fingers/toes off one at a time while not allowing them to pass out from the pain ...

[eagl]

Eagler,

I will have to completely disagree.

Throughout my training, I was taught that these techniques were immoral and illegal.  It's so well known that even these techiques will break down a person's dignity and mental health that the US military felt the need to train us specific techniques to resist them.  I've seen adults who KNOW they won't be seriously harmed break down, cry, spill their guts, etc. after only 3 days of this kind of thing.  And that's not even special forces style training, just the stuff almost everyone gets.

Hell, I accidentally made a guy cry after only 12 hours of shared physical and mental stress without even touching him (oops).

The techniques described in the article when done once, are merely harassment.  Done repeatedly however, they can do great harm and that makes it torture and abuse.  The US "doesn't do that".

Failing to torture captives is not a sign of weakness, however giving in to feelings of revenge and torturing them IS.  And it's a symptom of everything that is wrong with the US that this stuff is allowed to occur and that any American asked to perform such acts does not refuse outright or do everything in their power to halt the abuse of captives.

I am 100% in favor of detaining enemy combatants, however placing them under duress of this nature to elicit intelligence fits the EXACT definition of "torture" and unlawful conduct according to every single law of armed conflict briefing or training I've ever received in my USAF career.

Hell, according to the UCMJ I'm probably required to use up to lethal force if necessary to halt such abuse if I witness it.  The law of armed conflict briefings given by our judge advocates make it very clear that tolerating prisoner abuse is a crime.

[midnight Target]

eagl

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by eagl
Eagler,

I will have to completely disagree.

Throughout my training, I was taught that these techniques were immoral and illegal.  It's so well known that even these techiques will break down a person's dignity and mental health that the US military felt the need to train us specific techniques to resist them.  I've seen adults who KNOW they won't be seriously harmed break down, cry, spill their guts, etc. after only 3 days of this kind of thing.  And that's not even special forces style training, just the stuff almost everyone gets.

Hell, I accidentally made a guy cry after only 12 hours of shared physical and mental stress without even touching him (oops).

The techniques described in the article when done once, are merely harassment.  Done repeatedly however, they can do great harm and that makes it torture and abuse.  The US "doesn't do that".

Failing to torture captives is not a sign of weakness, however giving in to feelings of revenge and torturing them IS.  And it's a symptom of everything that is wrong with the US that this stuff is allowed to occur and that any American asked to perform such acts does not refuse outright or do everything in their power to halt the abuse of captives.

I am 100% in favor of detaining enemy combatants, however placing them under duress of this nature to elicit intelligence fits the EXACT definition of "torture" and unlawful conduct according to every single law of armed conflict briefing or training I've ever received in my USAF career.

Hell, according to the UCMJ I'm probably required to use up to lethal force if necessary to halt such abuse if I witness it.  The law of armed conflict briefings given by our judge advocates make it very clear that tolerating prisoner abuse is a crime.

Good post.

[lazs2]

I am against torture.  I think that we have too many nameless faceless alphabet soup federal cops too.   There should only be federal marshals.  

lazs

[Gunthr]

Making the Muslim extremists uncomfortable during a cycle of interrogation does reduce inhibitions in my humble opinion, and I have absolutely no problem with its use when questioning about critical matters, considering that the extremists intentionally target innocent non-combatants, women and children, and use barbaric mutilations and beheadings as a tactic.  Its justified because fanatical Islam is the result of a kind of brainwashing.  It stands to reason that it would require more stressors to break down resistance to questioning.

I make a distinction between enemies like the Islamists and enemies like those we have fought in all our other wars, where individuals may commit attrocities but it is not culturally embraced as a desireable or moral thing to do, as it is with Islamists.

[Eagler]

I too am against torture but I do not feel uncomfortable temperatures and playing crappy music loudly is torture.  

what about the chair, is it padded or hard wood, is that considered toture? bright lights? where do you draw the line ..

and don't forget we are not doing it for fun but to extract info. All they have to do is tell us what they know and we'd probably set them up in an oceanside villa for life...

looks like the extremists win another one as they are playing by a different rule book and laugh at our softness ..

[lazs2]

The problem with giving your guy more power is that when he is gone and the guy you don't agree with is in power....

The power will be his and he sure as hell will use it against you.  and they cycle of giving up more and more of our liberties to the government continues.....

lazs