Author Topic: Improve the P-47  (Read 11305 times)

Offline bozon

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Improve the P-47
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2006, 11:48:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
So in reality, while the P-47s may have had a slight advantage at that altitude, they had to come down to a lower altitude for engagements.

And that meant that the attacking LW could not dive through the defenders to get to the bombers and always were at a disadvantage from the top cover diving at THEM. P-38s were more than capable of fighting the LW planes on even terms but were unable to be an effective top cover due to the diving limitations. That resulted in 190s doing fast attack runs and getting away with it.

I forget which pilot was it, but when inteviewed he said he never had an engagement where the LW was higher them him, they always got to attack from above. (not very reliable without a source I know, sorry).

Also, in early 43 when just deployed to Britain, fighting tactics were still lacking leading to believe that the P47 would have serious trouble vs. the LW. The tips they got from the RAF included going into a luftberry circle when attacked and such stuff that totaly was not suited for the Jug (a spitfire maybe). Someone has posted that document in this forum before. In practive P-47s were successful even at lower altitudes vs. the LW (in the MTO and 9AF).
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2006, 02:39:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Fact:

There is much disinformation about the advantages of the laminar flow airfoils. Even North American admitted that there was no significant decrease in overall drag over 90% of the speed range. This was due to the air flow not remaining laminar as was originally thought. If you examine the wings of both the P-47 and P-51, you would notice that the chord to thickness ratio of the Thunderbolt's wing was less than that of the P-51D. That means that relative to the width of the wing, the P-47's wing was thinner than that of the P-51. Max dive speeds are limited as much by drag rise of the propeller as by the drag rise of the wing itself. At Wright Field in July of 1944, a shiny new P-51D was dive tested at gradually increasing speeds. Initial buffeting began at Mach .75 and gradually increased as speed went up. Eventually, they dived it to Mach .83, but did such damage to the plane that it was written off. In contrast, the immensely strong P-47 could survive repeated dives to Mach .83 without injury to the airframe.

 

Widewing,

I'm suprised this hasn't been posted yet...

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/mustangIV-divetest.html

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/p-51d-dive-27-feb-45.pdf

You'll see that Francis Dean's quote regarding the Wright Field tests are somewhat inaccurate.  The airframe was far from 'written off', in fact it was to be re-fitted with metal elevators before conducting further tests.

  7.   Maximum Limit of Combat.- The airplane has been dived to a maximum Mach number of 0.85 and on several occasions to 0.84. In each case the pilots reported that the vibration became extremely heavy beyond 0.80. In each dive to 0.84 or above the vibration became so severe that the airplane was damaged. The leading edge skin of the wing flap was buckled between rivets, a coolant radiator cracked and hydraulic line broken due to vibration on various dives to 0.84 and above. In extreme war emergency the airplane can be dived to a Mach number of 0.83 (400 m.p.h. Indicated Airspeed at 25,000 ft.), if a very gradual pull-out is made.
 
Cheers,

Brent Erickson
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2006, 03:56:37 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>As to adding 20mm cannon... The M2 cannon was nearly 40 inches longer than the BMG .50, which would have resulted in the guns protruding nearly four feet beyond the leading edge.

This seems to have been typical for successful Hispano installations ;-)

>The difference in weight between 8 Brownings and 4 Hispanos amounts to just over 100 lbs.

The difference is more pronounced if you look at the weights of the complete batteries as posted above:

4x Hispano II - 154 rpg - 352 kg - 187% firepower
8x ,50 Browning M2 - 375 rpg - 562 kg - 100% firepower
2x Hispano II - 308 rpg - 252 kg - 94% firepower

(Including ammunition and belt links, ammunition supply of equal energy in each setup.)

The advantage of the 4x Hispano battery is 110 kg (243 lbs - your figure is 235 lbs, so we're in good agreement here), and the advantage of the 2x Hispano battery is 310 kg (684 lbs).

A 310 kg advantage is equal to 413 L additional fuel - 110 gallons, or 38 min of endurance at 42" Hg/2550 RPM. My guess (we could tell more accurate with the manual data) is that this would result in a cruise speed of about 300 mph, so we have a gain of about 190 miles range or 95 miles combat radius.

According to Williamson Murray, "War in the Air", the P-47 had a combat radius of about 375 miles in August 1943, meaning that it could reach about as far as Wiesbaden. From Wiesbaden to Schweinfurt, we've got a distance of 88 miles, or slightly less than the gain from the different armament.

That should, at the very least, be food for serious thought :-)

(Of course, we wouldn't able to assign the full 310 kg to fuel, as tanks and fuel lines have their own weight as well. On the other hand, my P-47D-25 to D-35 Power Plan Chart indicates that Maximum Cruise Power is a bit lower than the setting I used above (which is about equivalent to Maximum Continuous in that chart), so we might get a bit more range out of it anyway. The 310 kg are about 4.9% of the loaded weight, so on the return leg, the P-47 will be markedly lighter than usual which helps combat radius, too. So there are some conservative factors along with the initial optimistic assumption that make the 95 mile combat radius extension a reasonable approximation. Conservative factors includes my map reading as Wiesbaden is not at the extreme limit of Murray's range circle, and somewhat south of the direct route to Schweinfurt, too :-)

>Now, the question begs, would the major level of modification required be worth the time, money and production delays associated with retooling? I think that the USAAF and War Production Board would say "hell no!"

With the benefit of hindsight, I'd say the answer in early 1943 should certainly have been an unambiguous "Yes"! Without this benefit, I'd expect that this suggestion would have been turned down since neither the USAAF nor the War Production Board had a clear idea at that time of how hard the fight was going to be for the 8th Air Force.

>To meet the need for additional range, the P-47D-25 introduced an enlarged internal aux tank, adding 65 gallons. With this, there was no more volume within the fuselage for additional fuel.

As pointed out above, the F4U-1 had tanks in the outer wings, which might have been an option for the P-47 as well, especially as we'd gain some volume from switching to 2x Hispano cannon.

To gain room in the fuselage, it would have been an option to remove the turbo-supercharger :-) The P-47 already had the intercooler that was required for high altitude performance, and replacing the turbo-supercharger with a mechanically driven one would have freed up the rear fuselage and the lower fuselage as well, creating plenty of room for enlarged fuel tanks.

Sounds like heresy, but actually two-stage mechanically-driven superchargers were doing quite well at high altitude, too, and while the P-47 would have lost a bit of power at the propeller, it would have gained some through exhaust thrust while being lighter overall (at an equivalent fuel load).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2006, 04:24:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
As pointed out above, the F4U-1 had tanks in the outer wings, which might have been an option for the P-47 as well, especially as we'd gain some volume from switching to 2x Hispano cannon.


I thought the reason they got rid of the wing tanks in the later Corsairs was because almost all mission profiles up to the time used drop tanks and with the addition of the second hardpoint on the -1C, -1D, and -4, it was thought the wing tanks were unnecessary.  If that's the case, couldn't the same argument be made for the P-47?  In "Long Reach", some of the Jug pilots describe maintaining their centerline tank during combat...Plus, looking at the construction of the wings on a website I found (I'm at work and didn't look it up again, but is showed a schematic of the structure) it doesn't look as if placing fuel in the wing was ever originally envisioned, based on the configuration of the ribs, spar, etc.  And, although completely annecdotal, is there any reference that descibes U.S. pilots as having "cannon envy" to the point that they'd trade their 8X.50 cal for 2X or 4X hispano?  Again going back to "Long Reach", many of the pilots describe their confidence in going head-on with German planes due to the fact that the Jug possessed "superior firepower" compared to the German fighters.  This may have been a misperception, especially when compared to the heavy cannon planes like the A-8 or 152, but it was a perception that existed none-the-less.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2006, 07:59:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LRRP22



  7.   Maximum Limit of Combat.- The airplane has been dived to a maximum Mach number of 0.85 and on several occasions to 0.84. In each case the pilots reported that the vibration became extremely heavy beyond 0.80. In each dive to 0.84 or above the vibration became so severe that the airplane was damaged. The leading edge skin of the wing flap was buckled between rivets, a coolant radiator cracked and hydraulic line broken due to vibration on various dives to 0.84 and above. In extreme war emergency the airplane can be dived to a Mach number of 0.83 (400 m.p.h. Indicated Airspeed at 25,000 ft.), if a very gradual pull-out is made.
 
Cheers,

Brent Erickson
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustangtest.html


Excellent material Brent, thanks for posting it.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2006, 08:15:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Widewing,

To gain room in the fuselage, it would have been an option to remove the turbo-supercharger :-) The P-47 already had the intercooler that was required for high altitude performance, and replacing the turbo-supercharger with a mechanically driven one would have freed up the rear fuselage and the lower fuselage as well, creating plenty of room for enlarged fuel tanks.

Sounds like heresy, but actually two-stage mechanically-driven superchargers were doing quite well at high altitude, too, and while the P-47 would have lost a bit of power at the propeller, it would have gained some through exhaust thrust while being lighter overall (at an equivalent fuel load).

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


Well apparently, Republic thought that they also needed better mid-level performance. With the XP-72, they changed to a huge centrifugal supercharger spun by a long extention shaft. This monster consumed as much internal volume as the turbo and its ducting, but it did provide for 3,300 hp at a much lower critical altitude of 25,000 feet. Had the XP-72 entered production as scheduled, it was to be fitted with the wing of the P-47N. Thus, they would have had a 500 mph fighter with range comparable to the P-51D. Bodie quotes Republic as expecting 540 mph on the projected eventual 4,000 hp promised by Pratt & Whitney.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Charge

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« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2006, 02:40:51 AM »
Sounds like a custom build drag racer, not a combat service a/c...

-C+
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Offline Wolfala

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« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2006, 12:44:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Sounds like a custom build drag racer, not a combat service a/c...

-C+


But 1 I would happily donate a testicle to have built for my personal enjoyment and raising hell down the Hudson River VFR corridor.

Wolf


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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2006, 03:44:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
But 1 I would happily donate a testicle to have built for my personal enjoyment and raising hell down the Hudson River VFR corridor.

Wolf


You might even give those F-16's that intercept you a run for their money...for a minute or so anyway...

If you look at the pictures of the XP-72, it looks like a warplane, no custom built testbed.  Its a huge, monstrosity of a plane.  I'm making a total SWAG here, but I'm guessing the overall dimensions get close to some of the present day (smaller) jet fighters.  If the war had continued, I guess we would know whether or not it would have been the dominant fighter it looked like on paper.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2006, 06:49:10 PM »
The XP-72...





Herb Fisher's P-47D-30-RE dive test Jug.



Why the P-47 was thought to be the better jabo... This one flew home this way.



Jugs did just about everything, including operating from carriers. In this case, a P-47D is catapulted off of a CVE at Saipan. Thunderbolts were operating off of captured airfields within rifle range of Japanese defenders.

 

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline TracerX

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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2006, 06:59:38 PM »
Thats it, I'm flying the P-47 tonight.  All models.  Are you happy now?  What a cool plane.  I used to think it was an ugly monstrosity, but now I find it's lines and shape to be magnificent.  The wing shape, the elongated cowl, the wide stance on the gear is just fabulous.

BTW, anyone that has flown the P-47 in the Special Events arena knows how important it is to control the high ground in any engagement.  I would much rather be diving to 30K than struggling to reach it.  The P47 is nearly untouchable above 30K (Ta-152 excluded).

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2006, 01:38:33 AM »
Hi Widewing,

>With the XP-72, they changed to a huge centrifugal supercharger spun by a long extention shaft. This monster consumed as much internal volume as the turbo and its ducting, but it did provide for 3,300 hp at a much lower critical altitude of 25,000 feet.

Quite interesting, I wasn't aware of that before. I think it shows quite nicely that Republic weren't religious about their turbo-supercharger.

In 1943, a mechanically supercharged Jug would, of course, have looked somewhat different than the XP-72. I'm confident it would have been possible to use a conventional engine installation as in the F4U-1 or the F6F-3 with the supercharger close to the firewall. That way, the volume beneath of and aft of the cockpit would have become available for fuel. (And much more than 110 gallons, if required.)

That would have given the P-47 the range to get to Schweinfurt and back on a single drop tank (or, installing more than 110 gallons internally, even without a drop tank).

Had the course of the air war been anticipated correctly by the USAAF, such an improved P-47 might have been a valuable asset to the 8th Air Force in its battles over the Reich.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline bkbandit

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« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2006, 03:10:03 AM »
we need cats for our carriers, i should be able to load the hellcat, rockets 2 1000blers 100% fuel. With wind u could prob do it with out the cats but we dont have it, i have seen pics wit f6fs right before launch hooked up to cats, yea there nothin but big rubber bands but it will help.

Offline Charge

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« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2006, 06:25:18 AM »
"With the XP-72, they changed to a huge centrifugal supercharger spun by a long extention shaft."

Is that really a sensible way of doing that?

What about torsional forces or bearings of the shaft?
What if something hits the shaft?

AFAIK, the Merlin has the connection shaft made out of metal that is rather soft to tolerate the conditions that would make a harder shaft to shatter. And it is quite short.  If a small transmission gearbox would be used to keep the revolutions in sensible limits that would require even more of the shaft to bear the torsional forces without bending, and thus without shattering.

Got any picture of how they did it?

-C+
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Offline gripen

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« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2006, 08:51:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Well apparently, Republic thought that they also needed better mid-level performance. With the XP-72, they changed to a huge centrifugal supercharger spun by a long extention shaft. This monster consumed as much internal volume as the turbo and its ducting, but it did provide for 3,300 hp at a much lower critical altitude of 25,000 feet.


What's the source for this? The sources seem to be quite contradictory because something like this is claimed in the AHT while White's book claim turbo in the XP-72.

Regarding the dive recovery of the P-47, it appears that the elevator tended to lock up at high mach numbers and the pilot was basicly a passenger until the mach number decreased at lower altitudes (around 12k) and elevator became operational again (sources RAE and an article written by C.E. Pappas, chief of the aerodynamics department of Republic). Therefore the dive recovery flaps were added to late production P-47s.

In the case of the P-51 dive recovery was basicly possible at any time but the recovery would cause increased buffeting and danger of structural damage. Actually the XP-51 in the NACA was the first plane where the dive recovery flaps were tested experimentally.

gripen