Fairness and Balance - A Myth?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by hitech
Kev:

 

When you refer to county limits, you are not refering to our current ENY system?

In the context of post ENY has nothing to do with it.
How anyone would assume I am having a go at the ENY system from my original post is beyond me.

100v100 = NO ENY
My point was skill levels, 100 newbs v 100 vets (at the extreme), even numbers yes, balanced, HARDLY.

No one else even mentioned ENY either (until you did), they seen it for what it was, a 'skill levels' problem.

Little 'touchy' about ENY?

[hitech]

Little 'touchy' about ENY?

Possibly.

But beside the eny, I still stand by my parphrase of your argument.

You are trying say

lack of perfection  implies not better than before.

Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.


HiTech

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by hitech
Possibly.

But beside the eny, I still stand by my parphrase of your argument.

You are trying say

lack of perfection  implies not better than before.

Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.


HiTech

lack of perfection  implies not better than before.  -
Depends whcih side of the fence your on -
For a furballer, no doubt it's better.

But up to now I can't see better, maybe I'm missing something somewhere.
Constant posts of -
More unbalanced
Wild swings in numbers
More milkrunning
Hoards still alive and kicking
Thats better?

Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.-

No, it means by definition each side has an equal chance of winning.
If they are equal on skill, then the difference is through strategy.

[hitech]

lack of perfection implies not better than before. -
Depends whcih side of the fence your on -
For a furballer, no doubt it's better.

But up to now I can't see better, maybe I'm missing something somewhere.
Constant posts of -
More unbalanced
Wild swings in numbers
More milkrunning
Hoards still alive and kicking
Thats better?

What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?

HiTech

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by hitech
What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?

HiTech

I never said they were complaining.

It was a example to debunk the much strived for "fairness and balance" concept, (which although admirable is unattainable), based on the obvious flaw, skill levels.

You brought up specifics i.e.

1) ENY - Which in an even numbered player environment doesn't happen anyway. (my whole point was even numbers, uneven skills).

2) The idea of "better than before".
Subjective depending on which side of the fence your on.

From my point of view -
EW - Furballers made that their sandbox, no other style of play is wanted OR welcomed. Any attempt to do anything but furball is met with derision on CH200 and whining posts on the BB the next day.

Which leaves the majority of your customer base scrambling over the MW / LW arenas.

Guess we'll have to disagree, I don't see that as better.

But looking forward to any tweaks you hopefully will be doing.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by hitech
What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?

HiTech

HT ... people aren't complaining about skill levels.

I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".

To achieve TRUE "balance", you must add "skill level" to the "balance" decision tree.

Most realize that your metrics for determining "skill level" are somewhat flawed and trying to make that part of the "balancing" decision would be futile at best.

In theory ... he is correct ... practicallity-wise ... well, I'll leave that up to you.

[pluck]

i for one can't really follow this argument.  it's about furballers, or as you imply the minority of the community.  it's about skill, or numbers?  like sim said, not all vets will fly for the the same country...the fact is they are spread out.  another fact is that in the former MA, the country with overwhelming numbers won the reset....not the other way around.  that might lead someone to believe that overwhelming numbers is more of a factor than skill.  how long can you live in a 10 v. 1.  heck even a 3 v 1 you should be dead if any they have the silghtest idea what they are doing.

so kev, if you don't like this set up, share with us how to improve the community, make the game competitive again, keep vets,  and increase new pilot interest in the game.  i bet even 2 weekers get tired of competing for kills in a hoarde with more experienced players.   you can't say "change it back the way it was."  some form of change was needed.  the community lost many because of gameplay related things.  the community as a whole could not fix itself, so we are here today.  the community possibly attracted elements to it that maybe HTC didn't want, and maybe others were shying away from the game because of it.  sure maybe it works for a bit longer, but looking down the road there may be little future.

just my opinion, which i'm sure you don't agree with.  people don't want change, even though down the road it will pay off, they want only what is right before their eyes.  i believe the change was aimed affecting the most areas of gameplay as possible, not just one.  i haven't seen anyone claiming EW as furball only, i've seen quite a few bases changes hands there.  i think your argument about "fair and balance" is flawed, because realistically not all vets will fly for a country.  will some countries have more skilled pilots,  maybe.  but then don't they deserve to be better/win if that is the case?  the idea is to give people a fighting chance.  like in football, some teams are better than others, but it's not because the have 25 extra people.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by SlapShot
HT ... people aren't complaining about skill levels.

I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".

To achieve TRUE "balance", you must add "skill level" to the "balance" decision tree.

Most realize that your metrics for determining "skill level" are somewhat flawed and trying to make that part of the "balancing" decision would be futile at best.

In theory ... he is correct ... practicallity-wise ... well, I'll leave that up to you.

Spot on.

OMG just realised, we actually see something from the same point of view.

Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.

Geez just hope I haven't started any wheels turning .

[hitech]

SlapShot:


I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".

I do not disagree, the problem I have is the conclusion from the basic argument.

Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.

I would state the conclusion as follows

Equal numbers does not mean " Perfectly fair and balanced", but equal numbers are more fair and balanced than unequal numbers.

and hence my parphrase.

Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.

Baicly I think Kev's orignal argument is flawed.

But he tries to use an invalid argument to suport his case

2) The idea of "better than before".
Subjective depending on which side of the fence your on.

Has absoulty nothing to do with his argement.
Because that statment is basicly the question, do you belive a more balanced arena is better or worse.

In which case I agree, it is a subjective opion and we can disagree, but the validity of his orignal argement is not a subjective thing. It either is or isnt valid.

HiTech

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.

Well.  Heck.

I kind of liked the idea....

- oldman

[Kev367th]

Lets get a few things out of the way -

You said -
"even thow things are MORE balanced by trying"

And the balance is where? Certainly not in arena country numbers, in fact it's worse.

You said -
"lack of perfection implies not better than before. "

"Better than before" depends on a subjective opinion by each individual person. Some would agree, some would disagree.

I didn't introduce these into the original premise, you did.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Spot on.

OMG just realised, we actually see something from the same point of view.

Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.

Geez just hope I haven't started any wheels turning .

Kev ... I understood what you meant from the get-go ... that is why I said your "reaching" ... because you know, as well as I do, that "skill level" really can not be entered into the equation.

HT ... I whole-heartly agree ... an attempt or any attempt(s) to "balance" will always be better than not trying at all.

Perfect "balance" may never be achieveable ... but the closer you get to perfection ... the better it will be.

[hitech]

Kev I am totaly clue less on what you are trying to say.

Do you wish more balance , Im assuming balance meens country numbers equal , if you think it meens somthing else please describe what your defenition of balance is.

If you do not wish more balance, please describe why.

If you wish more balance, and think somthing is causing an inbalnance please describe what you think is causing it.


And to help me, please refrain from words like better, because balance is better and balance is worse can mean different things.

1. It can mean things are More balanced.
2.  It can also meen More balance is a good thing.


HiTech

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by pluck
i for one can't really follow this argument.  it's about furballers, or as you imply the minority of the community.  it's about skill, or numbers?  like sim said, not all vets will fly for the the same country...the fact is they are spread out.  another fact is that in the former MA, the country with overwhelming numbers won the reset....not the other way around.  that might lead someone to believe that overwhelming numbers is more of a factor than skill.  how long can you live in a 10 v. 1.  heck even a 3 v 1 you should be dead if any they have the silghtest idea what they are doing.

 

My limited trips to the new Latewar arena seem to speak to this.  Still flying a 38G against the late war rides, but surviving a lot longer, which might suggest that many of the better sticks have gone to other arenas and this makes my average at best skills look better against the 1 trick HO and GO guys.

It makes me think that that safety in the horde stuff was a great disguise for lack of 'flying' ability.

I also had a strange experience in Midwar one night when there were 4 of us on Knits, 19 on Bish and 24 on Rooks.  

I upped to go defend a base that was essentially being milkrunned and came across a Rook 110G trying to sneak in to pork the field I was upping from.  When I rolled in on him, it was like he had no idea what to do.  He just did small banking turns left and right as I slowly closed on him.  He didn't have help close so it wasn't as if he was setting me up for a pick by s buddy.  I closed to 200 and blew him apart.  Last I checked a decent stick in a 110G can put up a fairly decent fight, but I felt like the Allied pilots at the end of WW2 shooting down the guy with 10 hours in the air and no clue what to do.

Anyone that can make me look like I know what I'm doing, is really hurting

[Schutt]

Originally posted by Kev367th

Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)

So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs

Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.

You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.

How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?

So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.

Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.

Actually the example is really flawed.

1.) all 3 countries are more or less equal in skill level, the assumption that all newbies are on one country and all vets on the other is not holdable if you dont have any hard proove. IF it would be the case, some vets quickly would change to the other side to get more intresting fights and some newbies quickly change to find some easy target... maybe one country is better, but i doubt that is by much.

2.) not true either. most times in ah the countrys have unequal numbers. BUT the vets tend to be more numerous (not exclusive, but higher percentage) on the country with the LOWER numbers. Why? Because you have more targets, better fight and bigger challenge. This tends to equal out the situation, since there are not two countries at equal numbers and one high skill other low skill. Instead you have one country with lower numbers but slightly higher skill and other country with higher numbers and slightly lower skill. This looks rather balnaced to me.

on top of that, reality shows that a lot of AH2 players have either affinity to their chess piece (like me ) or are bound to a squad which forces em to hop countries less. Some try to win the war, which is easier with the numbers. When you get online in a 2:1.5:1 situation it gets quite clear that 2 times the pilots means a LOT. Now i never saw any influence of skill there.... higher numbers = the guys taking the bases.


So, to be honest MY conclusion is that skill level does not need to be considerd, giving a bonus for equalizing the numbers is enough. Which form of bonus works best might be difficult to say and might need a new adjustment with the new arena design, but doesnt seem to be your question.

ciao schutt