Fairness and Balance - A Myth?

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by hitech
So let me paraprase this argument by kev.

Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.

I have to agree, this is the single impression I've gotten from all of Kev's posts. The entire premise for his argument is not based on any sort of fact or observation, just a desire to find something wrong with the system.

FWIW, in the LW last night, I saw approximately even numbers the entire time I was on. At one point, briefly, I think someone was up by 10 or 12 players, but didn't notice anything overwhelming. While people will always try to find imbalance and increase or exploit it, that fact is one of the problems, IMO, not an excuse to give up trying.

BTW, kev, nice attitude last night. Not too many people could lose a fight in an il2 and take it so gracefully as you did.

[Noir]

vets should be perked

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to agree, this is the single impression I've gotten from all of Kev's posts. The entire premise for his argument is not based on any sort of fact or observation, just a desire to find something wrong with the system.

FWIW, in the LW last night, I saw approximately even numbers the entire time I was on. At one point, briefly, I think someone was up by 10 or 12 players, but didn't notice anything overwhelming. While people will always try to find imbalance and increase or exploit it, that fact is one of the problems, IMO, not an excuse to give up trying.

BTW, kev, nice attitude last night. Not too many people could lose a fight in an il2 and take it so gracefully as you did.

Lol it was so sad, even to the point of one trying to ho me.

Whole premise is based on fact, to have balance, eveything has to be equal, and quite clearly it can't be done (see next post)

You couldn't have been on for long in the LW, the numbers usually swing a lot between all three countries, and did the short time I was in there before going to the MW when Bish ENY hit 15 or so.
A lot depends on what time your in there I guess, it varies a hell of a lot throughout the day.

[BugsBunny]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Hope this doesn't constitute a duplicate thread of any kind, if so, apologies.

Anyway onto the gist -

Going to use two countries as it makes things easier - the "Pink Tutus" (PTT) v the "Sheepskin Thongs" (SST)

Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)

So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs

Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.

You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.

How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?

So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.

Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.

Kev, I am with you on this one.  We should use a pilots score for that.  And before anyone says scores are meaningless, think again.  All the score hos that destroy this game will be effected by it.

Try to imagine SHawk and co trying to vulch pick and run in P40s because their score is too high.

I say DO IT HT!!!!!, lol

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Schutt
Actually the example is really flawed.

1.) all 3 countries are more or less equal in skill level, the assumption that all newbies are on one country and all vets on the other is not holdable if you dont have any hard proove. IF it would be the case, some vets quickly would change to the other side to get more intresting fights and some newbies quickly change to find some easy target... maybe one country is better, but i doubt that is by much.

2.) not true either. most times in ah the countrys have unequal numbers. BUT the vets tend to be more numerous (not exclusive, but higher percentage) on the country with the LOWER numbers. Why? Because you have more targets, better fight and bigger challenge. This tends to equal out the situation, since there are not two countries at equal numbers and one high skill other low skill. Instead you have one country with lower numbers but slightly higher skill and other country with higher numbers and slightly lower skill. This looks rather balnaced to me.

on top of that, reality shows that a lot of AH2 players have either affinity to their chess piece (like me ) or are bound to a squad which forces em to hop countries less. Some try to win the war, which is easier with the numbers. When you get online in a 2:1.5:1 situation it gets quite clear that 2 times the pilots means a LOT. Now i never saw any influence of skill there.... higher numbers = the guys taking the bases.


So, to be honest MY conclusion is that skill level does not need to be considerd, giving a bonus for equalizing the numbers is enough. Which form of bonus works best might be difficult to say and might need a new adjustment with the new arena design, but doesnt seem to be your question.

ciao schutt

1) Bish have more than their fair share of newbs, I still think we get them automatically.

2) No figures, proof or stats to back ANY of that up, pure speculation.

Agree with people having loyalty to their country, that will never change.

Never asked for skill level to be accounted for, was pointing out a basic flaw in the equal numbers theory.
Maybe I should bold it so I don't have to repeat it over and over and over and over again (think I will).

HT -

What I think is contributing to the imbalance as you asked (IMO).

1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.

2) Loyalty to ones country - Aint gonna change, like it or not.

3) Caps - Squads who can't get into the LW arena will all go to one of the other arenas. Thats why the MW was pretty full last night. NOT by choice, but by neccessity.
Country numbers swung wildly in the MW arena last night as complete squads hopped in and out.

Probably more.

Your main problem/complaints seem to lie with the LW arena, fix that they will all but dissappear.

[edit] Yup one more -

4) Some people prefer to fly a specific plane that may only be available in certain arenas.

[SlapShot]

1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.

One could argue that the LW has higher numbers, because too many are afraid to explore what is offered in the other arenas due to the fact that they can't ride in their "safe-mobiles" or as some say ... "crutches" ... La-7, N1K, P-51, etc.

I don't think that its they prefer higher number arenas, all arenas have the same CAP ... so how could LW be higher than the other two ?

[Kev367th]

Could also say look at-
#4 - Some people have a favorite plane they like to fly that is only available in the LW.

Too say they are afraid is just way outta line and not called for.
If you spent as much time persuading them instead of denigrating them at every opportunity, you might get further.

Each to his own.

I like the Tiffy, flown it in both the MW (perked) and LW (free).
Guess I'm afraid to go to EW, or is it it's just not available in the EW?

[AKDogg]

Perk all fighter cannon planes.  Evently when people run out of perks from ho'ing on a 50/50 chance of winning, they won't be able to up there cannon plane to ho everyone in sight.  

Since the change my flying time has gone down considerable ammount.  I went from about 80+hrs to maybe 50 so far this month.  Now keep in mind the first week the change wasn't in effect till later.  I think I had 15-20 hrs in before the change for this tour.  Like someone stated before, the strategy war is no longer.  Its either furball heaven or milk runners.  The game doesn't appeal to me anymore like it use to.  It has turned into a kids game that has no concept of flying or doing basic manevs to get on someones 6.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by MwDogg
Perk all fighter cannon planes.  Evently when people run out of perks from ho'ing on a 50/50 chance of winning, they won't be able to up there cannon plane to ho everyone in sight.  

Since the change my flying time has gone down considerable ammount.  I went from about 80+hrs to maybe 50 so far this month.  Now keep in mind the first week the change wasn't in effect till later.  I think I had 15-20 hrs in before the change for this tour.  Like someone stated before, the strategy war is no longer.  Its either furball heaven or milk runners.  The game doesn't appeal to me anymore like it use to.  It has turned into a kids game that has no concept of flying or doing basic manevs to get on someones 6.

Geez, meybe we should exchange glasses. I'm seeing exactly the opposite. The 'strategy war' now requires something more tactical than just hording up and overwhelming a base. I have seen more new guys working on how to get someone's 6. More cases of folks asking for 1v1's...and getting them. All the while, the "war" still goes on...bases fall, score monkeys get points and those that care get perks.

[Grits]

More ferrets!!

[Kev367th]

Thanks for the chat HT.

Did have an idea -
Would it be possible on the map changes to start each arena at a different part of the sequence so the maps aren't the same throughout?
Also for the new arenas to spawn with a different map to the first?

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Could also say look at-
#4 - Some people have a favorite plane they like to fly that is only available in the LW.

Too say they are afraid is just way outta line and not called for.
If you spent as much time persuading them instead of denigrating them at every opportunity, you might get further.

Each to his own.

I like the Tiffy, flown it in both the MW (perked) and LW (free).
Guess I'm afraid to go to EW, or is it it's just not available in the EW?

Come on Kev ... where did I say they were afraid ? ... I used the word "safe" ... alot different than afraid.

Stop playing dumb for the sake of argument ... you know what I am talking about and so do most.

[Chalenge]

Slapshot Ill give you a nice example. I like to fly the P51D and so does my whole squad. I train them in furballing with it escorting with it bombing in it and attacking bombers with it. Not all of them fly it all the time and some of them dont like it much either but when we fly as a squad we fly the P51D mostly. A dozen times over the past week or two a mission has been tried but the eny changes before we can even launch. My favorite ride is hard to get into see? Even when it is the squad isnt always online so I go with six or more bishops to attack a field. In less then a minute and usually much much quicker all the bishops are dead except me and now Im outnumbered ten to one. That doesnt bother me though because I can usually land six or more kills anyway. What bothers me is that the same guys that die within a minute of meeting the enemy are keeping the P51 out of the skies because they far outnumber the guys that can survive. So I log in and find the arena full or the P51 not available and then I log off and go fly F4AF.

Ive asked online and there are quite a few that would pay double for a adult only arena. More filling less gamey and much much more skill is what we all want. AND the P51D.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by SlapShot
1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.

One could argue that the LW has higher numbers, because too many are afraid to explore what is offered in the other arenas due to the fact that they can't ride in their "safe-mobiles" or as some say ... "crutches" ... La-7, N1K, P-51, etc.

I don't think that its they prefer higher number arenas, all arenas have the same CAP ... so how could LW be higher than the other two ?

Check italics - Enough said.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Chalenge
Ive asked online and there are quite a few that would pay double for a adult only arena. More filling less gamey and much much more skill is what we all want. AND the P51D.

...um....

Here's something that might be fun to trywith your squad:

Outfit them all with one of the mid-war planes.  Maybe start out with Spit 5s, the younger squad members will find that is a good transition plane.   See how that works out.  Pick the blue skins for all of you.  Now you're folks are ready for either the mid-war or the early-war arenas, they'll all get kills (believe me), you can stick together.  The world is bright again.

AND, there's no additional charge!

- oldman