Cowboy Putin

[texter]

Originally posted by straffo:

grrrr  

I must apologise a bit ... I was upset tomorrow and you got a kind of "lost bullet".

But IMO you should not said things like that : how can we expect mercy if we are unable to show a single bit of mercy ?

I'm dreamer ... and I still believe that it the environement who build the behaviour/personnality of an human .

Having met a few psychos with great parents I can't agree with your last comment completely. As for mercy, I agree with the concept but I'd like to quote from "Band of Brothers" a line that covers it better than I can say.

"You ignorant, servile wretches. What did you think you were doing?"

Granted it only partially applies to Iraq, where another "tribal" pattern is in full sway.

Tex

[texter]

Originally posted by Dowding:

As for the NA? At least the Taliban brought some law and order to the place. Even if it was a perverted kind of justice.

Boy. You sure you meant to say that? I'll give you a break and let you try and explain.

aha, missed the "political expediency" part and I agree with that part. Still...

Tex
justice perverted, is not justice

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: texter ]

[straffo]

Originally posted by Toad:
"armchair general"

Sorry was in the Navy  

So I'm an "armchair amiral"  

[Dowding]

Texter - my comments were an example of irony, of the bitter, satirical variety.

I might have been taking the piss, too.

Toad - you imply that not only should blame be avoided, but the concept of responsibility should be ignored too. And how about accountability?

Where are the bounds which restrict the actions of our leaders?

I'm sorry, but I don't trust our leaders to hold our interests as paramount 100% of the time. One of democracy's greatest failings is its inability to provide for the long term view. Terms of government are so short while the true ramifications are not clear for decades after an event/decision.

The alternative? I don't know of one... yet.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Dowding:

The alternative? I don't know of one... yet.

There's your problem.

You don't have a solution but you don't want to try to be part of anyone else's either. You just seem to want to complain about how those who are trying do a job you don't want perform. Admittedly you don't know how to do it any better.

I implied no such thing. People AND governments are both responsible and accountable for their actions. I've always said that.

However, this idea that there is always a "correct" or "perfect" choice is simply hogwash. Or the idea that "we knew he was a bad guy, we should never had anything to do with him at all". More hogwash.

Decode this one for me.

Prior to WW2, the intelligent world pretty much knew Stalin was a butcher and human rights disaster.

Yet the Western powers allied themselves with him against Hitler.

So, now should we flagellate ourseleves for sending him money, supplies, training, etc., etc.?

Especially since immediately after the war was over the West found itself in heated opposition to him?

Sort of parallels the Bin Laden situation, right?

Sort of parallels the present Northern Allliance situation now doesn't it?

There is a hierarchy of goals. In order to achieve your higher goals, you may have to delay fulfillment of lesser goals.

When we all got in bed with Stalin, we KNEW there would eventually be a day of reckoning. It was expedient to do so in defeating Hitler, however, so we did it.

Problem, decision, action. Ally with Stalin.

Which caused a new problem, new decisions, new action. The Cold War, alliances with more people we knew we'd have to deal with later.

Eventually though, the Cold War ended. Now we're dealing with the results of those decisions by...

Acknowledging the problem, making decisions and taking action...

Which will lead to... you guessed it.

Responsibility and accountability are part of the process. In fact, they are why the process continues unendingly. It seems every new "solution" results in either a new problem or an opportunity to achieve those lesser goals I mentioned that were delayed. The responsibility and accountability is shown in the determination and will to continue to struggle to achieve the goals.

[-dead-]

Hi Toad,
 

Responsibility and accountability are part of the process. In fact, they are why the process continues unendingly. It seems every new "solution" results in either a new problem or an opportunity to achieve those lesser goals I mentioned that were delayed. The responsibility and accountability is shown in the determination and will to continue to struggle to achieve the goals.

Re sentence 1 & 3: That's very nice prose and all, but it doesn't actually seem to mean anything or make any sense. Please explain - seems to be doubletalk to me. Do you write corporate mission statements a lot, by any chance?  

Or simplify it for me by just pointing out who's responsible & accountable. And if they are accountable, who are they accountable to, and what sort of punishment/justice they can expect if they are found to have made mistakes. And what methods of redress & sorts of compensation the victims of these errors have.  

Ta - oh and happy turkey day  

[Dowding]

You just seem to want to complain about how those who are trying do a job you don't want perform.

Really? That's an awfully big assumption. And completely wrong. I applied to the RAF for officer training and was a month from going to RAF Cranwell for the 5-day OASC (Officer Aircrew Selection Centre), when I had an epileptic seizure. Unfortunately, the RAF don't allow epileptics to enter the service, even for the ground based jobs I had applied for. I might not have been accepted, but I would have liked the chance to try. I'd passed the first two interviews.

I agree that expediency is the nature of the world and cannot always be avoided. But there are times when it is necessary and when it is not. I don't believe you can equate the alliance with Stalin in a total war with the arming of the Afghans or Saddam in the 80s.

You cannot compare Stalin, the absolute ruler of a huge country with massive natural and human resources with some poxy bunch of warlords armed with ageing AK-47s and body odour. It just doesn't wash. Was the support of Stalin absolutely necessary to, in your words, achieve our goals? Yes. Was the arming, training and funding of Afghan warlords in the 80s, followed by abandonment, absolutely necessary to achieve our goals? I don't believe so.

Can you draw a line? Who's accountable if that line is crossed?

Bin Laden, IMO, is a legitimate target because he and his organisation does pose an obvious threat to my and my country's way of life.

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

[GRUNHERZ]

Man Dowding keep it up, youre hiting all the important points....

BTW are you also a vegetarian?

[ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]

[Toad]

Originally posted by -dead-:
Or simplify it for me by just pointing out who's responsible & accountable. And if they are accountable, who are they accountable to, and what sort of punishment/justice they can expect if they are found to have made mistakes. And what methods of redress & sorts of compensation the victims of these errors have.  

Well, take a look around at which countries have answered the call since WW2.

Those that saw the problem, made the decisions to help and took action are the same ones acting today. They are responsible. The ones that simply complain from the bleachers obviously are not responsible. The ones who act are.

The nature of it is that no solution is perfect. Resolving or paritally resolving one problem seems to lead to another problem in the same area or allows the addressing of other lesser problems that were lower in priority in another area. I guess when we have a world-wide Utopia the job will be done. I'm not holding my breath.

Those that act are held accountable by themselves. For instance, many solutions were tried in Kosovo. The early ones failed miserably but those involved didn't walk away. They held themselves accountable to find an answer. Eventually, a "livable" answer was found.. for now.

The nations that sit in the bleachers and just complain also hold the acting nations accountable to some degree but it's the inner accountability that makes the difference.

When they make the mistakes the punishment is that they still have a problem to solve.  

The victims of the mistakes? If a nation attracts the attention of the "action" part of the world community it probably deserves no redress. Action is the last resort and it's difficult to generate action as we've seen.

Perhaps an example of a nation that was the "victim" of a mistake would help me understand your point?

[Toad]

Well, Dowding, you're against taking action against Iraq, correct? Even though it's clear that they have trained terrorists in the camp South of Baghdad and that they continue to develop weapons of mass destruction?

I think the alliance with Stalin and the arming of the Afghans and Saddam are indeed all of the same coin. It was expedient to use some rather disagreeable people/factions to counter what was percieved as a greater threat. The only difference is in degree; the basic idea is the same.

The arming of the Afghans IIRC was intended to encourage an independent state where people could choose their form of government rather than have it imposed upon them. In short, a typical "Western" goal.

The abandonment of the Afghans after that war was over was a mistake, obviously. And, as I pointed out, it has led to the problem we are solving now. Assessment, decision, action... leading to assessment decision, action.

Just like in Iraq. I feel it's obvious that quitting the Gulf War at 100 hours was a mistake. Now, we'll have to revisit that problem and make an assessment, decision and action once again.

There ARE no permanent solutions at this stage of civilization, IMO. Constantly changing, ever evolving.

Anyone think all the problems are totally over in the former Yugoslavia? I don't. Assessment, Decision, Action once again most likely.

The permanent "perfect" solution to any of these problems is currently beyond the capability of World Society, IMO.

That's no reason to quit trying, however.

So we'll just have to keep doing the best we can.

[texter]

Originally posted by Dowding:
Texter - my comments were an example of irony, of the bitter, satirical variety.

I might have been taking the piss, too.

Pass, but it's not an unknown tactic that you use there Dowd.

Tex

[-dead-]

Well, take a look around at which countries have answered the call since WW2.

I am more ignorant than I had first assumed. What call? I may have been asleep during the meeting when they explained the whole "the call" thing.      So may be you could indulge me and explain it to me.

   

Those that saw the problem, made the decisions to help and took action are the same ones acting today. They are responsible. The ones that simply complain from the bleachers obviously are not responsible. The ones who act are.

So as a precis: only those who act are to blame?

   

The nature of it is that no solution is perfect. Resolving or paritally resolving one problem seems to lead to another problem in the same area or allows the addressing of other lesser problems that were lower in priority in another area. I guess when we have a world-wide Utopia the job will be done. I'm not holding my breath.

So if acting by its very nature will result in an imperfect solution, why act at all? Why not let sleeping dogs lie?
I mean if you start off with an imperfect situation, and you act - you end up with an imperfect situation and dirty hands. But if you don't bother to act, you are left with an imperfect solution and clean hands.

   

Those that act are held accountable by themselves.  

So in other words if a country does something bad, they have to smack their own wrist? And, I assume, by extension if someone murders someone in your family, they should be in charge of prosecuting and punishing themselves? Yup that seems just and fair     Or to take this into the current world - governments (and presumably terroist groups) should be accountable to no one but themselves.

   

For instance, many solutions were tried in Kosovo. The early ones failed miserably but those involved didn't walk away. They held themselves accountable to find an answer. Eventually, a "livable" answer was found.. for now.

A "livable" solution? The US refused to aid the UN peace keeping effort with any troops and then decided to ignore the UN arms embargo by running guns to a set of extremists who turned out to be rather nasty about 6 months down the line (surprise, surprise). I must have missed another meeting.

   

The victims of the mistakes? If a nation attracts the attention of the "action" part of the world community it probably deserves no redress. Action is the last resort and it's difficult to generate action as we've seen.  

OK - lemme see if I have this one - if they are accused of being bad, they must be bad - otherwise no one would accuse them? And if they are accused then we don't need to bother with any time consuming trials or evidence or anything like hearing a defense.

Wow. Did you copy this stuff straight out of the   Malleus Mallificarum ? Or is it from the transcript from some actual medieval witch trial?      

   

Perhaps an example of a nation that was the "victim" of a mistake would help me understand your point?

OK let's go with the US - they have two major complexes that get hit by a terrorist organisation.
According to Toad: "If a nation attracts the attention of the "action" part of the world community it probably deserves no redress."
So they deserve this? And they shouldn't have a chance to whine or retaliate or seek redress? Is this what you are saying? Or did I miss another meeting?

Now assume the US seeks redress [despite "not deserving" it]- but according to the Toad doctorine: "Those that saw the problem, made the decisions to help and took action are the same ones acting today. They are responsible. The ones that simply complain from the bleachers obviously are not responsible. The ones who act are."
So the guys in the planes who drove them into the buildings are responsible. Not people who simply complain from the bleachers: ie anyone still alive.
So technically, they can't go after Osama Bin Laden - and indeed even if they did, we come up against the Toad doctorine again:
"Those that act are held accountable by themselves."
So Osama et al should prosecute themselves, and the US shouldn't do anything.

Is this right? Did I miss something? Surely Toad wouldn't mean that? It seems so unfair to the poor victims.
Which is strange, because the Toad Doctorine seemed so sound when we were assuming the victims weren't Americans...

...or did I miss a meeting again? What time are these meetings, anyway?  

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]

[Toad]

Having fun dead?

The call? You're German right?

Was there a "call" in 1939 when Germany invaded Poland?

Yeah, all the nations can sit back and watch and let things go.

I guess YOU were satisfied with the way things went in the former Yugoslavia before anyone "outsiders" got involved. Should have all stayed out right?

I guees YOU were OK with the Iraqis taking Kuwait right? Should have all stayed out right?

No problems with the Soviet Union occupying most of Eastern Europe after WW2 right? No necessity for NATO and the Cold War right?

No problems with the slaughter of 2 million in Sudan right?

Sit in the bleachers and complain dead.  

[Rude]

Mr. Dowding....

Sitting in the cheap seats again I see.

You have introduced yourself, at least to me, as someone who by virtue of being uninvolved prefers to contribute by criticizing the United States and those of us who are her citizens, than to understand as most adults do, that the solutions we seek come at a price.

Talk is cheap my little European friend...until you can offer solutions which foster change rather than jealous, pissed off rants about others who make your life and the world you live in such a scary place, you might want to practice some restraint.

Oh...and by the way...kudos to your Mr. Tony Blair...perhaps if the character and leadership he has offered could inspire you, your posts might become slightly more digestible by those of us who live in the real world.

Tata!

[-dead-]

Hi Toad -
Having immense fun, thanks. And all without the aid of being German.  
So the call is from Poland 1939? So the countries we're dealing with are: Great Britain, France, India, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, with a tip of the hat to Iraq and Saudi Arabia for breaking diplomatic ties? Is this right? I'm a bit confused - cos in the first post where you mentioned the ever elusive "call" you said "which countries have answered the call since WW2".
And I'm still none the wiser as to what "the call" is exactly - get Germany out of Poland? Surely the Germans vacated Poland in 1945? Did I miss a news flash? Who has occupied Poland today? And with all these references to Sudan & Kuwait etc - surely you are referring to a call that was answered by the US as well? So it can't just be Poland 1939...

As to Yugoslavia, Sudan & Iraq / Kuwait - I'm always deeply touched to see how concerned the US is about human rights and democracy in countries with large oil reserves or proposed oil pipelines and anti-US governments. Truly wonderful to see such altruism in a country - most countries appear to just greedily protect and persue their own economic and political interests, and it is heart-warming to be assured by you that this is not the case with America.

As to the Soviet Union occupying most of Eastern Europe after WW2 - I must have missed a meeting again - because I appear to be labouring under the impression that NATO & the US were "sitting in the bleachers and complaining" about that one, and simply left the Soviet Union alone to do whatever it wanted to the people of Eastern Europe, until the people of the Soviet Union got fed up, and changed the system on their own.

Still I fear I may indeed be "sitting in the bleachers and complaining" about these things because I don't think your ever going to get me to accept that the concept of bombing/war for peace is anything other than a contradiction in terms. Nor will you get me to accept that running guns to civil war areas is going to shorten the conflict. And the more looking I do, the more I suspect that the US agenda abroad these days is almost entirely a cynical oil interest pill that's merely sugar-coated with human rights concerns to make it more palatable and easier to swallow for the public. Cheaper oil is not a not a cause I'm willing to kill or die for, but if that's your bag, kill away - as you so aptly point out: I won't stop you.