P-47 Dogfighting

[Stoney74]

Yeah SD, you were a large part of the motivation for this post.  That's why I made the apology on my 2nd post there--I was creased when I wrote it.  I guess I should specifically apologize to you.

PM sent...

[SAS_KID]

Originally posted by Krypto
NEVER Bat, we had fun 3 duels I took all of em home And if a jug 11 can hold its own against any spit unless its the top pilot omg. Medal please?

quit flattering yourself.  A jug is an excellent fighter you just can't get used to fly it like a spit. Use angles in a dogfight and roll a lot for if you keep canging direction they have to do so then get them into a scissor fight and that is where the jug can do well is low speed scissor. Me and YUCCA had a great fight in the KOTH for the round win. Of course I lost but what you HAVE to do is burn the opponents E otherwise he can just BnZ ya to death.

[bozon]

The JUG can't really "turn fight" as in going around in circles trying to bite the other guy's ass. It can knife fight decently enough using more linear manuvers - in that I mean that you generaly advance along a line, all scissors and rolling manuvers. Speed management is everything and the faster the fight starts the better you are.

The low speed "nose up" is weak in all jugs and especially the D11. In vertical scissors you'll feel this once the speeds drop below 180 mph and the other guys starts to drop on you from above in every cycle.
The D40 with improved WEP and the paddle blade prop is the better one and this is why I consider it the best knife fighter of the jugs (better than the N). You HAVE to conserve your WEP. Loose WEP on the N and you are the slowest, worst climbing of all jugs.

Flat scissors is also great as long as the speed is high. You'll burn E like mad which may allow you to suprise opponents that underestimate you, but if you don't kill them after two moves you can't keep it up.

Rolling scissors is where you want to be, especially when the speed drops. steep climbs are not needed and you don't wallow like in flat scissors. Superb roll and stability even when slow, makes the jugs good at this.

The higher the fight is, your condition quickly improves. As of ~15k you outclimb P51s on WEP. At 20k you outclimb them even without it. Take it to 30k... and you'll find nothing to fight...

Always, your greatest weapon is the disrespect of your opponent. Fly La7 or Spit 16 and they run away from you, fly a JUG and they carelessly attack you.

[Spatula]

Dont forget the Jug is prob THE dive master. Ive used this to good effect out-diving zekes and niks etc and then extend a it a bit and zoom climb. After a power-dive the jugs have a sky-rocket zoom.
Another thing i found usefull (and it def dont always work, but is worth it when you got no other choice) is again dive LOTS pre-merge and hope your opponent tries taking a diving shot at ya, and get REAL aggressive lead-turn set up. Pop flaps as needed. Alot of people in slower turn-n-burn planes dont expect the aggressiveness or the high-speed performance advantage the jug holds, and if all goes to plan you catch them well off-guard and on their 6 blastin. Its a gamble move.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by Krypto
NEVER Bat, we had fun 3 duels I took all of em home And if a jug 11 can hold its own against any spit unless its the top pilot omg. Medal please?

3 fights with who? mowacca?


mowacca is very good in the jug for sure, ive fought him before.


honestly though krypto man, try takin someone like yucca, balsy, blukitty to DA and they will show you a true 47 turn fight.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Stoney74
Apparently, according to others, I am a skilless noob if I don't learn how to mix it up in a P47.  So, I'm looking for the best way to mop up zeros, hurris, and spit 16's in a co-alt, co-e Jug.  Any advantage in altitude or speed is apparently a crutch that retards my develpment as a player in the game...

The very first thing to do is make sure you can look around EASILY, I devoted a button on my JS (next to the hat) to look up, using the hat works much better now.. adding an up view to existing hat views allows me to rarely lose sight of anyone.

My flaps are mapped to the JS too.

Constant Flap / thottle adjustments are a must, a Spit can turn well naturally, a Jug can turn with anything with some encouragement.. try dropping a flap or two during a turn / loop.. if you feel the JS shake feather the trottle / adjust flaps as needed.

Cutting throttle and dropping flaps when its unexpected works like a charm, dudes will pass right by you just as you go full WEP / No flaps and put guns on them. Booming down on someone, then slowing as you get close will also suprise people.

I usually take 50% gas w/1 DT, I lose the DT as soon as I see a red guy... easy way to have plenty of gas, and lose weight.

It takes lots of practice to get the flaps / throttle thing down. Think of it as if you're driving a car in a demolition derby, you'll need to adjust speed as you approach (throttle), use the parking brake (flaps) to skid, floor it right after slamming on the brakes.. all those things.

I have a spare JS on the floor I use like a gas pedal, that and force feedback instantly improved my score.... I can feel my way through a turn while tapping flaps up/down feathering throttle to maintain speed.

You'll get eaten alive if you dart around loaded with gas at full throttle trying to turn without flaps, the Jug just wont roll like that with more nimble planes.

[1895]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
3 fights with who? mowacca?


mowacca is very good in the jug for sure, ive fought him before.


honestly though krypto man, try takin someone like yucca, balsy, blukitty to DA and they will show you a true 47 turn fight.

Faught yucca 1v1 in koth at the start, balsy i might have faught. Blu kitty i avoided at the end of a war trrying to RTB

[dhaus]

Yeah, Balsy taught me a lot about respecting a jug when I'm flying a spit 8.  I think he nailed me about 4 times in a row by getting me to follow on his 6 while he was doing high yo yos.  By his third yo yo, I was wallowing behind him, he flipped that thing in about a 10 yard window (insert gratuitous "YOU CHEAT! NO JUG CAN DO THAT!   lol.) and 8 50's were firing right into my cockpit.    It made me want to run out and get my own jug.  Oh, blukitty does things in a jug that I'm positive violate at least 8 laws of nature.  I figured out how to counter Balsy (at least the yo yo thing,) but Blukitty pwns me every dang time.  Of course, that could be more of an indication of my pilot skills rather that Blukitty's.

[airspro]

I figured out how to counter Balsy (at least the yo yo thing,

I see this quite a bit , never knew what to call it , thanks .

I just fly with them {doing yo yo's too )  till they burn off their E works like a charm most times . Ya if you go and try to cut their corner you E is shot and then you are by him , hehe , and no I don't fly P47's .

me <-- comfort type of guy

[dhaus]

I just went vertical and let him yo yo below me, rather than trying to stay on his 6 and cut the corners.  As he came up nice and slow, I put some cannons on his 47.  I'm sure that co e, co alt, he'll take me back to school.

[SAS_KID]

Krypto YUCCA was drunk durin KOTH.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
if you feel the JS shake feather the trottle

Cutting throttle and dropping flaps when its unexpected works like a charm, dudes will pass right by you just as you go full WEP / No flaps and put guns on them. Booming down on someone, then slowing as you get close will also suprise people.

You'll get eaten alive if you dart around loaded with gas at full throttle trying to turn without flaps, the Jug just wont roll like that with more nimble planes. [/B]

Do you know about corner turning speed?  Below a certain speed (somewhere around two hundred and fifty miles per hour), the more power you have the better you turn.  Even above that speed, more power will help you sustain your tight turn for longer.  Power gives you speed and propwash.  Speed gives you air over the wing, as does propwash.  Both increase lift.  Lift is what makes you turn and climb.  I never throttle back in any airplane in combat; instead I perform yo-yos, raising my nose above the horizon to trade speed for altitude so that I can get it back again when I need it by lowering my nose below the horizon again.  Throttling back simply throws away energy, wasting it.  You can trade energy for an angle, but you can almost always trade energy for an angle and altitude.

[Balsy]

Benny,

I believe what hes refering too is getting a guns on solution by forcing an overshoot.

Suprisingly I havent been able to force an overshoot with the  JUG with the throttle firewalled.

Balsy

[bozon]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Do you know about corner turning speed?  Below a certain speed (somewhere around two hundred and fifty miles per hour), the more power you have the better you turn.  

The corner speed relates  to the best turning speed in terms of turn rate. The limiting factor is the 6G blackout and so it means the max speed at which you can pull 6G. This is not sustainable but yes, the more power you have the slower it decays.

BUT, turn rate is often less important than turn radius, for which you want to go slow. This is why you chop throttle for cutting a corner or trying to turn inside someone. The geomery will buy you many more angles for a short duration than a 2 deg/sec turn rate advantage.

The need for more power below a certain speed relates to the back side of the power curve. Below this speed induced drag increase rapidly and dominated over the viscous drag which decreases (keeping a constant bank angle). This speed would be near the default auto-climb speed set for your plane. Below this point, you'd really feal when a plane is underpowered as you start to wallow. In a P47 you do not want to be there in any turning manuvers. Stability and roll is still good so you can force a linear overshoot, but if this is a turning manuver and you didn't get the angles on the other guy, this usually means it is hopeless. This is where spit 16s just pull up way over your head and drop down guns blazing.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by bozon
BUT, turn rate is often less important than turn radius, for which you want to go slow. This is why you chop throttle for cutting a corner or trying to turn inside someone. The geomery will buy you many more angles for a short duration than a 2 deg/sec turn rate advantage.
[/B]

Yes, slow is better for turn radius.  I tell that the best way to slow down, however, is not to throttle back but to pull harder on the stick.  If you're already at maximum angle of attack and you still need to slow down, then raise the nose above the horizon.  It's called a yo-yo turn (not the same as a yo-yo) and it's what real fighter pilots do when they need to bleed a little speed (except for F-16 pilots, because the F-16 is to jet fighters what the Spitfire is to propeller fighters).