It doesn't pay to kill police officers

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by storch
that's alarming.  course the police in my town can't shoot to well either.  they sure can whip up traffic violations though.

Sure it's alarming if you're not given any context.  Try recognizing a threat, stepping away, drawing, and firing accurately in the time it takes the scumbag sitting in his car an arm's reach away to lift his gun from his lap to point in your face.  Officers in those quick-draw situations nearly always fire low, as the gun is still coming up as they pull the trigger.

[lazs2]

I have the opportunity to shoot with and observe swat and can easily see why they needed to fire so many rounds to hit something... I am surprised they got that many hits....for 68 hits I would expect a thousand or so rounds fired.  

I also seen the aftermath of their precison shooting in Santa Cruz where they did 30k damage to surrounding buildings... a friends 55 chevy had 5k damage and it was in no way in the line of fire for what any of us would see...  It was a bank robbery and the bandits were not hit.   most of the buildings hit were not in the line of fire that any reasonable person would see...   fortunately...  no innocents were hit either.

I am not a fan of this new miltitary type training of "suppresing fire"  and the current issue of ex military m16's to police.   The training is also sub par in my opinion and is causing the "spray and pray" type of police shooting we see.    One thing for sure.... you are probly in more danger from police bullets in a shooting than the bandits.

lazs

[Eagler]

Originally posted by FiLtH
Im thinking the sheriff was p/o about losing a good man and a friend to a POS like that. If it were me Id have gone back to the station for more ammo. Good for him..no PC BS here!

EXACTLY!!
Lakeland FL is a rural/close community. Some dirt bag drug dealer from Miami gets pulled over, shoots two cops and the K-9. The  dog and one office dies and some of you are concerned how many times they shot the bad guy????
How about his family, his wife and children the officer left behind? Any concern there?
Your concern for the scumbag is what is wrong with todays diluted justice system which allowed the creep with a rap sheet longer than his corn rows the freedom to kill...
guess what, he ain't able to shoot anyone ever again.
I hope the cop that shot the scum get a medal and a promotion


R.I.P.

[Neubob]

As much as I feel for the cop and his family, I think it would be wise to consider Civil Rights here. Can anybody here, or the police, for that matter, say that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for the crime of killing a police officer? Yes, it's more than likely that this 'dirt bag' did it, but I would rather the courts make the final decision, and not a volley of bullets. Police are not judge and jury in this land, and they shouldn't be. They certainly shouldn't be fullfilling the role of executioner.  

No, I feel nothing for the guy the cops killed. 1 bullet or a thousand. If he threatened them, thus causing them to fire first, then so be it, but if this was a retributivist execution, then it is wrong, plain and simple. Go ahead and tell me that I am igonorant, myopic and disjointed from reality. Go ahead and say 'you've never been a cop before', or 'you've never lost a good buddy'...I've also never been dragged out of my car and beaten or shot by police because of a suspicion of guilt, and I'd like to keep it that way.

The fact stands that in the US, you're supposed to be innocent until a court proves you otherwise. It is a good and decent value that protects us from our own government, and nobody, much less a worthless cop-killer, should be used to justify the violation of this value. NOBODY.

If every cop acted on his anger, wielded his deadly force based on his adrenal gland and not his brain and his training, then this nation would consume itself from the inside. Cops are enforcers of the laws, and keepers of the peace, not vigilantes. Small community or large, it makes no difference. What's next? Blowing a guy away for failure to stop? I don't want to be a prisoner of the law enforcement community. I doubt anyone here would either.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Neubob
As much as I feel for the cop and his family, I think it would be wise to consider Civil Rights here. Can anybody here, or the police, for that matter, say that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for the crime of killing a police officer? Yes, it's more than likely that this 'dirt bag' did it, but I would rather the courts make the final decision, and not a volley of bullets. Police are not judge and jury in this land, and they shouldn't be. They certainly shouldn't be fullfilling the role of executioner.  

No, I feel nothing for the guy the cops killed. 1 bullet or a thousand. If he threatened them, thus causing them to fire first, then so be it, but if this was a retributivist execution, then it is wrong, plain and simple. Go ahead and tell me that I am igonorant, myopic and disjointed from reality. Go ahead and say 'you've never been a cop before', or 'you've never lost a good buddy'...I've also never been dragged out of my car and beaten or shot by police because of a suspicion of guilt, and I'd like to keep it that way.

The fact stands that in the US, you're supposed to be innocent until a court proves you otherwise. It is a good and decent value that protects us from our own government, and nobody, much less a worthless cop-killer, should be used to justify the violation of this value. NOBODY.

If every cop acted on his anger, wielded his deadly force based on his adrenal gland and not his brain and his training, then this nation would consume itself from the inside. Cops are enforcers of the laws, and keepers of the peace, not vigilantes. Small community or large, it makes no difference. What's next? Blowing a guy away for failure to stop? I don't want to be a prisoner of the law enforcement community. I doubt anyone here would either.

piss off!

[lasersailor184]

Out of all this outrage, how many of you are part of the lakeland community?  None?

Why don't we wait and see what they say?

[Gunthr]

Nuebob, why do you think this was an "execution"?

[Squire]

"Williams, 39, was shot eight times—one bullet fired at close range behind the deputy’s right ear and another in his right temple, according to autopsy results released on Saturday by the sheriff’s office."

I guess his civil rights might have been violated there, just a hunch I have. Call me crazy.

"Sheriff’s officials said SWAT team members found Freeland on Friday hiding under a fallen oak tree in a wooded area near where the deputies were shot, and began firing when they saw a gun in his hand."

They should have approached him and said "stop in the name of the law", it worked so well on "Dragnet".

...im going to rent "Dead Man Walking" tonight with my girlfriends, and yes, I will have a box of kleenex handy when Sean goes to his end, that part always gets me.



Geezus.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Gunthr
Nuebob, why do you think this was an "execution"?

I don't think it was, but I'm not sure that it wasn't. I said that IF it was, then it was wrong, unjust, illegal, and every other adjective you can lump in there. The police are responsible for enforcement , not adjudication. They have no right to overstep their bounds, no matter how angry they are.

A lot of you guys like to talk about the founding fathers and their intentions when they drafted the constitution. Like it or not, absurd as this may be, justified as this may seem, if the police did in fact put him down like a dog, it goes against this consitutional intent. Period.

[Gunthr]

well, if you don't think it was an execution .....   relax  

I don't think it was either...

[Neubob]

I'm not as emotional as some of the others here, gunthr. I support and respect the police. I don't fear them because I don't break laws. I'd like to keep it that way though. Respect goes a lot farther, and is a hell of a lot more productive than fear.

[Gunthr]

I agree.  

I'm sure the unthinkable does happen from time to time, but I don't think this is it...

[Neubob]

Originally posted by Gunthr
I agree.  

I'm sure the unthinkable does happen from time to time, but I don't think this is it...

I just wish that everyone here would see it that way, Gunthr.  It's not a matter of how many bullets. It's a matter of justice over vigilantiism. The people here with law enforcement experience, above all others, should value the difference between those two terms--because it is that difference that places their role, and responsibility, above that of the average person on the street.

[Maverick]

It's really amusing to see some of the posts here. Some of them are real knee slappers like the bit about a possible civil rights violation of the shooter here.

Read the article again. Please note that the chances of getting the entire story here is rather slim due to print space constraints of the publication.

The civil rights violations were the 2 deputies who were shot. One was obviously executed with clear intent to kill him. The other was shot during the same incident and apparently hit badly enough that the ability to return fire was not present. Sounds like their civil rights were terminated rather callously. They had not committed a felony; they had not been convicted of a crime, yet this individual felt he had the right to deny them the right to live and their families the right to maintain a whole family.

This individual did not surrender but fled the scene and maintained control of a weapon.

Responding Officers already have a crime scene and 2 fallen Officers. They already KNOW the suspect is obviously armed and certainly has no apparent qualms about shooting a Police Officer. Do you really expect them to simply walk up to him and ask him to pretty please come out and be arrested??? They spot the guy and he has a weapon. They do NOT have a requirement for him to fire the first shot. They do not have a requirement to wait until another Officer is killed or wounded before taking action to protect their own lives.

If this dirtbag (I have several other names but why screw with the profanity filter) had any intention of surrendering he could have walked out from his cover position with both hands raised and surrendered. Instead he was in a position of cover and concealment, obviously in a position of tactical advantage to ambush other Officers.

The Officers are under no constraint to fire a shot then walk up to see if the bad guy decides to quit playing nasty. They have families and their constraint is to go home at the end of the shift. They fired until they were sure no other Officer was going to be wounded or killed by this dirtbag. This is no freaking computer game where if you "die" you get to come back and play some more. It's for real and death is rather permanent.

Some of you criticize the Sheriff for his humanity. He is a human being and he is subject to having feelings inspite of his training. After you deliver a death message to someone then you might, I say might, have an idea about the impact of that kind of job on a person. He likely had to tell the widow of that Deputy her husband was dead. He likely had to tell the wife of the other Deputy that he also was in fear of losing his life. He likely had the sad duty to go see his people dead and wounded at the scene of the ambush. One or both of those Deputies may have been a personal friend of his.

I have no doubt he was pissed off. I don't fault him for it in the heat of the issue. He is also telling anyone else in the area what the result of shooting his Deputies will gain the next scumbag who tries it. Hell, I'd be happy to work for someone like that. He obviously backs his Deputies instead of catering to the PC crowd who never get into the line of fire.

[Skuzzy]

Well stated Maverick.  This is one of the times I think justice was served well.  It's a shame two officers had to die before this dirtbag was stopped.