Author Topic: At what price safety?  (Read 669 times)

Offline Charon

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At what price safety?
« on: October 02, 2006, 05:08:35 PM »
We obviously have a range of opinion on the board relative to individual rights, behavior and responsibilities vs. the “public good.”

Alcohol is bad for society when it is abused, but if you’re a drinker you excuse that and concentrate on personal responsibility. Similarly, drugs are bad and should be illegal, but don’t you dare consider banning my drug of choice -- alcohol or tobacco.

Or

Guns are bad, and your rights as a responsible, legal gun owner must be infringed for the common good, especially since I am not personally a gun owner and have no interest in that.

Or

SUVs should be banned because they contribute to global warming, help sponsor ME terrorist activities and threaten the lives of people driving sensible small cars, such as myself.

In a perfect world such things would be considered in an unemotional, fair and neutral manner. However, “You rights end where my feelings begin…” is too often the case. Not to mention that such issues are easily spun by special interest groups and politicians, often with little basis in factuality. Also, at some point, is a riskless society worth living in? At what point do risks that you personally accept suddenly become someone else’s business?

Skydiving? Extreme Sports? Any physical sport? Smoking? Drinking? Firearm Ownership? Motorcycles? The Internet? Media messages? Socializing with loose women? :)
To name but a very few…

On that note, one area currently being pushed is the perfectly safe (or as close as you can get) driving experience. The US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is on to this (a variety of technology-specific quotes offered below from: http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/eu-misses-road-safety-target-promotes-hi-tech-cars/article-152866 ), but the real action and traction is currently going on in the EU.

In 2003, the European Commission set a goal of decreasing the number of deaths on European roads by 50 per cent by 2010.  Support for the European Commission’s initiative was expressed by Mr. Pat Cox, President of the European Parliament, Mr. Ari Vatanen, Member of the European Parliament, Ms Loyola de Palacio, Vice-President of the European Commission and Mr. Michael Schumacher, a Formula 1 rally driver. [from an ESSO support statement]

Much of this is based on Sweden’s Vision Zero: "The Vision Zero initiative is built on a conceptual approach developed in the mid- 1990’s by public health researchers in Sweden looking for more effective methods to reduce seemingly intractable fatalities from road traffic accidents. The approach is based on a belief that while errors in a complex system are unavoidable, it is possible to alleviate the consequences of error and that “safety… is based on a refusal to accept human deaths or lifelong suffering as a result of road traffic.”

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“As a result of the work of Prof. Tingvall and others, Europe’s road safety community now agrees that the basis for Vision Zero is first and foremost a distinct ethical approach: no one should be killed or injured for life in road traffic.”


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Member states have pledged to cut annual road deaths by 50% between 2001 and 2010. The mid-term review of the 3rd road safety action programme, which was released by the European Commission at the beginning of this year, revealed that traffic deaths in the EU have dropped by 17-18%. With less than four years to go, the chances of the EU achieving its target are slim. In the meantime, there are still too many deaths and injuries on European roads that could be avoided if all countries implemented some of the most crucial and well-known measures.
European Transport Safety Council Executive Director Jörg Beckmann (http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/road-safety-ngo-eu-reduce-road-accidents/article-158057 )


Some of this involves improvements to roads, some facilitates quicker response to accidents, some a safer automobile structure and the UK version of Vision Zero would involve a 20mph speed limit in all urban areas. However, the most cost effective “some” involves changing the automobile to make it driver proof.

Speedlimits -- let the car take care of that for you.
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"Illegal and inappropriate speed is the single biggest contributory factor in fatal road crashes. It increases both the risk of a crash and the severity of resulting injuries. Managing speed is therefore the most important measure to reduce death and injury on our roads. And ISA is a robust, simple and reliable technology to achieve this objective."
Jörg Beckmann


Seatbelts or a cocktail after work?
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We have estimated that by increasing the safety belt use to 90 percent, and devising countermeasures to address the alcohol related safety problems—with those two approaches alone, we could save over 9,000 lives a year.  And there is no reason why vehicle based solutions for increasing belt use and preventing alcohol related crashes could not be found to supplement other efforts to curb this epidemic.
NHTSA


Like to ride a motorcycle?
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Motorcyclists appear to be most at risk, with deaths rising between 2000 and 2003 when elsewhere, the total number of road deaths was falling. Tackling the safety of motorcyclists is now "a matter of urgency," the Commission said.
Jörg Beckmann


Just how do you make a motorcycle safe? Add two wheels and an external shell full of airbags would be my guess.

Like to drive a truck or SUV?
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As you can see here, some of these larger vehicles are more likely to be involved in rollover crashes as well. Compare the rollover fatalities that are occurring in passenger cars with SUV’s, pickup’s and vans.  Note that they are two to three times in pickups, vans and SUV’s in comparison to cars.
NHTSA


What about actually driving the vehicle?
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The answer to this question lies in what would be the acceptable level of vehicle control the society is willing to accept.  So far we have been delicately approaching crash prevention methods as I stated before.
That may not be sufficient.  We need a more aggressive approach.  While our current methods of warning and delicate vehicle control might be sufficient when conditions are not anywhere near the limit, under limit conditions, we may have to move towards some control by the vehicle.
Many drivers may find this unacceptable.  However, as we gradually move into stability control, traction control, adaptive cruise control and other technologies, the public will slowly get used to it, and a time will come when more and more drivers will be willing to give up occasional control when the situation warrants it.
But this is not going to occur fast.  And our efforts must be geared to make this happen as early as possible.  Our approach in research for developing technologies must move from “driver-in-the loop” towards, occasional, “driver-out-of-the-loop” when necessary.
Should a driver be found lacking in his capacity for safe driving, the vehicle must be able to sense that and make adjustments in vehicle response behavior such as speed, handling, and suspension response in the pre-crash mode.
A vehicle that senses an impending crash, looking at the driver to sense his capacity in taking evasive actions, and examining the traffic environment, should be able to determine whether that crash can be avoided.
NHTSA


The future?
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In conclusion, the gist of my presentation is that technologies can solve the safety problems, provided every subsystem is in constant communication with each other, the driver and the environment. As a society we must learn how to relinquish vehicle control, when we reach a stage of maturity in technology development to trust the vehicle’s judgment.
NHTSA


This stuff is moving ahead too. Last year I changed jobs and I'm now the editor at a magazine focused on advanced imaging technologies. I went to a conference in Finland recently where the European automakers were desperately trying to find imaging solutions that might make driving safer without having to rely on a future generation of marshmallow bubblecars with small engines and limited driver control and speed limits far below those found today in many areas.

So, many of us like driving. We like driving dangerous things in some cases. Should we give up our open road freedom for the common good?

Charon
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 05:37:04 PM by Charon »

Offline lasersailor184

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At what price safety?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 05:30:54 PM »
No.




Eh, I'll extrapolate.  It goes with the phrase "You give an inch, they take a mile."  You give up one freedom for the common good, what's to stop the next freedom being TAKEN for the common good?
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Offline Gh0stFT

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At what price safety?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 06:03:16 PM »
open road freedom? i doubt that there would be a total speed limit
on german roads, we are the only one left in the EU without speed
limit on parts of the Autobahn. Imagine only 120km/h allowed,
and you drive a car what can go up to 300km/h !! ;)
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Offline J_A_B

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At what price safety?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 06:15:10 PM »
The "feel free to ban anything I don't use" mentality and the related "I have my piece of the pie so screw anyone who doesn't" line of thought are two of the worst threats to this country (and likely Europe too).  

It won't get better until the baby boomers finally die off.  They're not called the "me generation" for nothing.  Hopefully by then this country isn't too messed up save itself.

J_A_B

Offline Angus

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At what price safety?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 06:26:36 PM »
Hehe, when I lived in Germany I made it to 175 kph on the autobahn, only to have a Ferrari take over with a speed enough to make me look like standing still.
Anyway, my current gravel road speed record is 165 or so, - that darned car just wouldn't go no faster.
So, bans to enforce safety, - yes.
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Offline ROC

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At what price safety?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2006, 06:33:42 PM »
Quote
It won't get better until the baby boomers finally die off


Improved civil rights
Computers
Internet
Improved Heath
Medical Advancements
Scientific Advances
Vehicle Safety Improvements
Opportunities for Anyone willing to get out and create them.



By "Better" you mean like when my Grandmother and Grandfather endured the Depression?  Better like that?  Or worked in Factories that actually forced people to make things by hand instead of automation?  Like that?  Maybe "better" like when things like Small Pox could kill a child and their parents could enjoy watching.  Oh, I know, you must mean back when they had really kewl things like Horses and Buggies and those really sanitary dirt roads and open sewers, I got ya.  Ya, we so screwed you over, didn't we.  I wonder, since you are sitting and waiting for "us" to die off, exactly what have you contributed to advance humanity?  Hows your Nintendo Thumb doing?

Or, were you just trying to be clever?
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline Bodhi

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At what price safety?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 06:34:45 PM »
Let Darwin reign....
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Offline crowMAW

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At what price safety?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 09:58:26 PM »
There's going to need to be some serious technology improvements before this is viable.  I have yet to find a stability system that I have been unable to confuse on the track...which put the car in more jeapordy of spinning than if a comptetent driver had been at the wheel.

Offline Charon

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At what price safety?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2006, 11:56:55 PM »
Quote
There's going to need to be some serious technology improvements before this is viable. I have yet to find a stability system that I have been unable to confuse on the track...which put the car in more jeapordy of spinning than if a comptetent driver had been at the wheel.


The goal of the self-driving car is a long term one. But short term, significant reductions in posted speed limits, to include heavy enforcement and even automatic speed reduction technology in the car is doable.

Similarly, telemetry black boxes that could signal a violation to the police is doable, say you exceed the known speed limit in zone A for X period of time. Some commercial fleets are already using cameras mounted on the vehicle mirror that are activated by passing certain G thresholds that will record both the driver and the driver's view out the window for an employer (or perhaps a parent) to review. You get distracted and have to swerve and you have some explaining to do.

You can also certainly provide disincentives to purchase and drive "dangerous" vehicles, along the lines of current insurance rates for sports cars, only significantly more so. There are many ways to encourage a generic, vanilla driving experience until the cars can drive themselves.

Charon

Offline Masherbrum

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At what price safety?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2006, 12:14:43 AM »
I have a 1983 Jeep CJ-7 that is my Trail Rig.    It is street legal, and I worry more about the tools CUTTING ME OFF than, myself owning a CJ7 that DOES Get better gas mileage than my 2004 Explorer.  

Both vehicles have been off road.   They are not "Mallcrawlers" (your very capable Land Rovers driven by the Metrosexual with a sweater tied around his neck).
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Offline Debonair

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At what price safety?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2006, 12:25:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
...There are many ways to encourage a generic, vanilla driving experience until the cars can drive themselves.

Charon


i think what you meant to write was

Quote
There are many ways to encourage a generic, vanilla, pine scented driving experience until the cars can drive themselves

Offline Charon

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At what price safety?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 12:27:53 AM »
Quote

i think what you meant to write was

There are many ways to encourage a generic, vanilla, pine scented driving experience until the cars can drive themselves


Find one in every car. You'll see :)

Charon

Offline Maverick

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At what price safety?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 09:06:14 AM »
Good luck, You cannot legislate the outlawing of stupidity and negligence. People will find ways around it at every corner. (pun intended)

Only if you remove people from the transportation control aspect are you going to reduce the fatalities and that simply is not going to happen for some time. Machines are not yet up to the task of doing all the driving, or flying for that matter, so we leave falable humans in the drivers seat to bugger things up.

There are 3 ways to remove the traffic fatality situation. Remove humans from any control over the vehicle, have something like the Star Trek transporter to beam you to your destination or simply do away with people. :eek: As long as people can manually control any vehicle they will find new and novel ways to wreck them, stupidly.

Most people lack the maturity and self discipline to control the vehicle totally in compliance with the traffic system. Why else would you see threads dedicated to radar / ladar detectors / scramblers and how to "get out of a ticket" even on this bbs.

People are falable and subject to emotional responses that are less than rational at times. As long as they are in the equation for vehicle control they will continue to make a mess on the roadway.

Please note I am NOT advocating machine control of vehicles. i don't think it can happen in my lifetime both from the technology perpective and from the "people" perpsective.
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Offline lukster

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At what price safety?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 09:48:06 AM »
I'd be happy to let my car drive me where I want to go. I'll read a book or sleep. Until the car can do the job by itself I don't want it as a back seat driver.

Offline Viking

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At what price safety?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 09:53:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
we are the only one left in the EU without speed
limit on parts of the Autobahn.


Not quite right. On the Isle of Man in the UK there are no speed limits.