Author Topic: Why I care about religion  (Read 8407 times)

Offline lukster

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Why I care about religion
« Reply #105 on: October 05, 2006, 05:16:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Seems you just added another step to the chain of regression.

My last question (or first as the case may be) ends with, "What happened before then?"

Your last question is, "Who created the creator?"

and the answer to both is, "I don't know."



There you go putting words into my mouth. Your question appears to be more of a statement than anything else. Can you not simply take what I offered at face value?

I'll answer the question you claimed to have asked anyhow. "Before" only applies where time exists. Time is a part of our universe but God does not exist within it's constraints. I know that's a difficult concept to accept.

Offline wrag

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« Reply #106 on: October 05, 2006, 05:25:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I think Clinton was an ass, but it's not because of his religious beliefs.  Despite your constant attempts to characterize me as a christian-hater, that's simply not true.  Re-read my posts, and you'll see that my problem is with the unconstitutional nature of laws that use religion against atheists or to control other people.

Hold on....  are you assuming I'm a democrat?  Is that the direction you're heading?  HAHAHAHAHA!

Awesome, that's fantastic.


I got a ticket once for not wearing a seatbelt.  I was riding with someone when it happened.  

I called the ACLU.  I expressed that I felt the seatbelt law was unconstitutional.  The attorney I was speaking with agreed.  I said lets fight it!  He said not likely, yes the law was unconstitutional, BUT... it was a popular law, AND there was NO MONEY in fighting it so the ACLU was NOT interested?????????????????????

Sadly there are a lot of laws that are such.  Sadly it can be very difficult, and frustrating, to get others to fight such laws with you.

Interestingly, after having my share of accidents, I always wear a seat belt when I drive.  I do it by choice.  I also required my offspring to wear em when they rode with me.

I still think the seatbelt laws are unconstitutional!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #107 on: October 05, 2006, 06:09:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
There you go putting words into my mouth. Your question appears to be more of a statement than anything else. Can you not simply take what I offered at face value?

I'll answer the question you claimed to have asked anyhow. "Before" only applies where time exists. Time is a part of our universe but God does not exist within it's constraints. I know that's a difficult concept to accept.


I did not mean to put words in your mouth.  Every inquisitive child asks "Who created God, Mommy?" My assumption was that you were inquisitive... sorry

And the concept of no before fits very well in big bang theory.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 06:13:20 PM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2006, 06:25:50 PM »
Regarding the main topic, I would agree that religious tests for public service are not constitutional. I agree in principle with several points in the video, even though I am no longer an atheist. I did find the fellow painting with an awfully wide brush of "religion" as his vague antagonist, a tactic equal to those used in any traditional religious rivalry.

Regarding the peripheral discussion of theism vis a vis atheism, it is hard to imagine that conclusive verification will ever be found from nature to "prove" the existence of the Creator.

On the other hand, there is a lot of "evidence" that points to the possibility. What perfect luck that the moon, only 240,000 miles away from earth, appears the identical size in the sky as the massive sun, 93,000,000 miles away. The sun is 388 times farther away from earth, but the moon's disk perfectly covers the sun during solar eclipses. Not only that, but the orbits of the earth and moon permit eclipse shadows to fall on earth, to be viewed by sentient beings that can appreciate and marvel at such a lucky chance. Well, well. Lucky, lucky us. No other planet-moon system in the solar system attains such a perfect eclipse.

Proof vs possibility. I think that is a key difference in view here. Proof? Not conclusive. Possibility? Fairly good.

As a young atheist I wanted to know two main things.

What is the point of existence?
What is the point of my life in this existence?

During the time that I was pondering these questions, I was learning in Calculus that any finite number compared to infinity appears so small that it approaches zero in comparison. If my transient finite life of 70-80 years was going to wind up in everlasting annihilation, then what really is the point of it all? That question led me to the "possibility" that there may be an eternal Creator, and following from that, an eternal aspect to life. Not proof, but possibility. From then on for several years I went through no small struggle to find more clarity about these issues.

So the bottom line for me is that I found a personal, intimate relationship with the Creator via channels in my life that I find more real than this bulletin board. My relationship is not based on what someone else tried to prove to me, but based on my personal willingness to communicate with the Creator as a submissive creature. I certainly cannot prove to you that God exists. Au contraire! You would have to let Him prove to you directly that He exists, as a submissive creature.

And if you are not interested, hey, free country... Just to add that for a person of sound mind who persistently ignores the opportunity to meet the Author of life, there may be a persistent consequence unrelated to the constitution.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2006, 08:05:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I did not mean to put words in your mouth.  Every inquisitive child asks "Who created God, Mommy?" My assumption was that you were inquisitive... sorry

And the concept of no before fits very well in big bang theory.


It's natural to want to apply the same "rules" of our space/time to a creator of the universe but by necessity I say that the creator of space and time must be different in a way that defies conventional understanding. We've had this conversation before.

Offline wrag

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« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2006, 10:00:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Regarding the main topic, I would agree that religious tests for public service are not constitutional. I agree in principle with several points in the video, even though I am no longer an atheist. I did find the fellow painting with an awfully wide brush of "religion" as his vague antagonist, a tactic equal to those used in any traditional religious rivalry.

Regarding the peripheral discussion of theism vis a vis atheism, it is hard to imagine that conclusive verification will ever be found from nature to "prove" the existence of the Creator.

On the other hand, there is a lot of "evidence" that points to the possibility. What perfect luck that the moon, only 240,000 miles away from earth, appears the identical size in the sky as the massive sun, 93,000,000 miles away. The sun is 388 times farther away from earth, but the moon's disk perfectly covers the sun during solar eclipses. Not only that, but the orbits of the earth and moon permit eclipse shadows to fall on earth, to be viewed by sentient beings that can appreciate and marvel at such a lucky chance. Well, well. Lucky, lucky us. No other planet-moon system in the solar system attains such a perfect eclipse.

Proof vs possibility. I think that is a key difference in view here. Proof? Not conclusive. Possibility? Fairly good.

As a young atheist I wanted to know two main things.

What is the point of existence?
What is the point of my life in this existence?

During the time that I was pondering these questions, I was learning in Calculus that any finite number compared to infinity appears so small that it approaches zero in comparison. If my transient finite life of 70-80 years was going to wind up in everlasting annihilation, then what really is the point of it all? That question led me to the "possibility" that there may be an eternal Creator, and following from that, an eternal aspect to life. Not proof, but possibility. From then on for several years I went through no small struggle to find more clarity about these issues.

So the bottom line for me is that I found a personal, intimate relationship with the Creator via channels in my life that I find more real than this bulletin board. My relationship is not based on what someone else tried to prove to me, but based on my personal willingness to communicate with the Creator as a submissive creature. I certainly cannot prove to you that God exists. Au contraire! You would have to let Him prove to you directly that He exists, as a submissive creature.

And if you are not interested, hey, free country... Just to add that for a person of sound mind who persistently ignores the opportunity to meet the Author of life, there may be a persistent consequence unrelated to the constitution.


Sir IMHO well put.

IMHO this is NOT an attempt to force a viewpoint on others.  It is, IMHO, more of an explaination regarding a personal view.


BTW If the law posted by Chairboy actually exist, AND is actually being enforced, then I agree............ it is unconstitutional and should be removed.

I'm further inclined to think it might take only someone challenging this law in court to see it struck down.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2006, 07:31:54 AM »
Dead, Aquashrimp, Neubob, Chairboy and others kind of sum it up for me.

I was brought up religious. In fact in my family I was the last of my siblings to attend mass every Sunday.  But then I stopped, oddly enough coincident with my visit to a red state in the USA. I'm not sure if I ever bought properly into the God thing since I am essentially a questioner. Why, why, why?

I don't label myself as atheist, non believer, agnostic etc. I am not a member of any club. I just came to the conclusion based on everyday evidence that there is no God and in truth such a thing could not exist. I can understand why people believe in God. We all like to believe we have some purpose in the world. Some more than others. My purpose, I believe, is not unlike that of other creatures in this world. To survive and to ensure the survival of my species.

It would be nice to have a God. The thought that someone out there has your best interests at heart is comforting. Hence religion.

When you do finally let go the God myth. It is kind of relaxing. The further away you get from the idea of a supernatural being controlling our life the more absurd the notion seems.  It's a 'road to Damascus' moment to coin a phrase.  Seeing supposedly intelligent, rational people devoting their lives to a supernatural myth is unfortunate.

The biggest irony about religion as far as I'm concerned is that religion itself helps prove the non existence of a God. There are so many religions and variations within religions all convinced of the rightness of their viewpoint. Rationally and logically we know they can't all be right.

All you have to do is take the next step in logic and realise none of them are right including your version. If there was a God there would be one religion. If there was a God and it visited the Earth, it would be rejected by most religious people because quite simply it didn't represent their version of the myth. Actually God would have to form a new religion just complicating the whole problem.

Here endeth my homily.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2006, 08:42:40 AM »
dead and cpxx...  I see your point and I think that with most religions... the only thing they get right is that there is a god.

I think that all the crap they add to that does not change that point..... I just won't play the god game by their rules.

what they do in god's name tho does not affect my belief in god.   I would never say that I have the answer as to how god want's me or us to live.   I think that it is apparent and that even atheists feel it and live that way or feel "guilty"   distortions do not make the root idea wrong for me.

Like you cpxx I like to ask why but am content to live as my god guides me and wait till later to see what it is all about.

lazs

Offline lukster

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« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2006, 08:48:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx
I am essentially a questioner. Why, why, why?

I don't label myself as atheist, non believer, agnostic etc. I am not a member of any club. I just came to the conclusion based on everyday evidence that there is no God and in truth such a thing could not exist.


Sounds like you stopped asking why when you came to your conclusion, a questioner no longer.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2006, 09:00:00 AM »
yep... how can you stop asking how this universe came to be and the beauty and nobleness around you and.....

how it is that you are able to appreciate it?   How is it that you are given the strength to do things or bear things that you do not have the strength to do or bear?

How can a person who has lived life fully and experianced the good and the awful not believe in a god?

in any case... it is pretty moot.   we are guided by him and will someday see what it is all about.

lazs

Offline slimm50

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« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2006, 09:21:46 AM »
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Originally posted by Shuckins
It's the bi-monthly "I'm not really anti-religious but resent religion's attempt to influence the law-making process in order to foist their beliefs on me and and thus install a theocratic government, reinstitute the Inquisition, and carry out human sacrifices under the guidelines of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion" thread.

Did I go over the top?  I can never tell.


:rofl :rofl   naw, man, you're ok.:lol

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2006, 09:22:00 AM »
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Originally posted by lukster
Sounds like you stopped asking why when you came to your conclusion, a questioner no longer.


Yes, I stopped questioning and became a conservative:D

But seriously, eventually you must decide what you believe. Well I think so anyway. It doesn't mean I don't wonder how we came to be. It could be that 'God' is not so much a being as a process, not so much sentient as a matter of physics. We could go on delving deeper into philosophical and metaphysical arguments and ideas as to what the concept of God should be. Perhaps God is in fact the universe, a macro God as opposed to a micro human-like God.

The undisputable fact is that in terms of the universe we are not even a millionth of a megapixel. The notion that we as individuals are important to a God which holds sway in a universe this big is frankly ridiculous.

Offline lukster

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« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2006, 09:29:11 AM »
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Originally posted by cpxxx
The undisputable fact is that in terms of the universe we are not even a millionth of a megapixel. The notion that we as individuals are important to a God which holds sway in a universe this big is frankly ridiculous.


Only when your God is a being bound by the same constraints as we humans find ourselves to be. It would seem ridiculous for a human god to be capable even of awareness of every living being, much less know their intimate secrets. However, for a being capable of creating all of time and space it may not be so ridiculous.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2006, 10:55:39 AM »
Chair likes to stay in his head.  I want that boy safely tethered to the space shuttle for one hour in zero G. ..  and then let him get back to us on his perspective of human existance...
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2006, 11:03:56 AM »
I sure hope my perspective wouldn't be limited to the simplistic view of the universe that religions offer.  Nature is far more interesting without the wizard behind the scenes pulling levers and adjusting valves.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis