North Korea Might Have a Bad Day

[Choocha]

Just cause the terrain looks different ...don't let that fool you.  Also, our troops don't have nearly the footprint i.e. numbers etc. that we did in Nam - which is keeping total casualties down.

Look at the numbers on a per capita basis.  Deaths and injuries/ Personel On the Ground.  


Don't forget injuries, advances in medicine and body armour have made this fight one of broken bodies.

Poor soldiers, they deserve better leadership than this.  Ironic that a draft doger from Vietnam has given us our second Vietnam.

I work closley with Marines and Navy in my current job, and all but the most hardcore cool-aid drinkers will back everything I have asserted.

[Stoney74]

OK,

Comparisons:

Vietnam--Highest Troop Levels in 1968 at roughly 450,000 U.S. forces in country.  Losses that year: approx. 14,600 KIA, 87,400 WIA.*  That's a 3% KIA rate.

Iraq--Current Troop Level at approx. 125,000 in country.  Don't have YTD deaths.  But, total casualties since March '03: approx. 2,100 KIA, 22,000 WIA*.  Troop levels have fluctuated between approx. 150,000-120,000 in country throughout this period.  Dividing total KIA by 3 = 700 per year average = .4% KIA rate.

*DoD Stats  

I understand what you're saying--more people in country mean more deaths naturally.  But, a "per capita" rate doesn't count here, because we're talking about people's lives.  It doesn't matter how many get killed, their have equal worth, regardless of percentage.  We're spending a much smaller amount of youth and treasure on this one.

We're drifting off topic a bit, partly my fault.  IIRC there's something like 400 million military aged males in China.  We don't have enough bombs or bullets in the current inventory to deal with that type of military potential, nor do I believe the industrial potential to match theirs.  And no one in the world is going to let us just turn either country into a nuclear wasteland.  Fighting China or N Korea (or possibly both at the same time?) will be no cake walk, despite our technological advantage.  400 hi-tech aircraft versus 2,200 obsolescent aircraft--I say advantage to the obsolescent aircraft.  And, I know we have more than 400 hi-tech aircraft, but for a fight against China, where you going to base 'em?  Kadena AB in Okinawa doesn't have enough ramp space.  MCAS Futenma in Okinawa doesn't have enough ramp space--not that either Okinawa field would last that long.  Guam--lots of airborne refueling from there.  Japanese airbases would last only a little longer than Oki.  The only real advantage we have IMO is with Blue Water Navy.  And I'm not sure that it would be decisive.

BTW Choocha, where do you work?

[Squire]

Japan already has a formidable defence force. Its not nuclear, but its no paper tiger.

[Stoney74]

On Okinawa, the JDF has (1), I repeat (1) HAWK battery protecting the port facility at White Beach.  There's (1) squadron of F4's at Naha.  Its not a matter of the quality of the JDF.  Its all about the quantity of the Chinese, and the slime with respect to the N Koreans.

[Choocha]

I'm a defense contractor...thats all I want to say.  We got guys in my office flying back and forth to Iraq every day.  We had one hit by an RPG (not directly).  He survived, he would not have in NAM.  Again, look and the number of WOUNDED in your figures.

We are spending 9 billion a month in Iraq.  The DoD is trying to cut or delay everying it can to pay.


We should let the Japanese buy the remainder of the F-22 production run- the portion that was cut to pay for the Iraq war.

[Squire]

Air Force:

Fighters
F-15J/DJ (225)
F-4EJ (70)
F-2A/B (62)
F-1 (45)

Recon / Electronic warfare
RF-4E/EJ (42)
E-2C AWACS (20)
E-767 AWACS (4)

Navy:

Kongo class destroyers (4 in service) *AEGIS DDs*

Atago class destroyers (2 under construction)
Haruna class destroyers (2 in service)
Shirane class destroyers (2 in service)
Tachikaze class destroyers (3 in service)
Hatakaze class destroyers (2 in service)
Murasame class destroyers (9 in service)
Takanami class destroyers (5 in service)
Asagiri class destroyers (6 in service)
Hatsuyuki class destroyers (11 in service)

Ishikari class destroyer escorts (1 in service)
Yubari class destroyer escorts (2 in service)

Oyashio class submarines (9 in service)
Harushio class submarines (6 in service)
Yushio class submarines (2 in service)

Abukuma class destroyer escorts (6 in service)

Naval Fixed Wing Aircraft 179
Naval Helicopters 135

...Not a small force, irregrardless of what may be on Okinawa, and they are capably manned/crewed. They are certainly comparabale to almost any European navy or air force in size or equipment for 2006.

[lukster]

Can there be any doubt that the Japanese are capable of building a formidable army/navy/air force should they turn their attention to doing so? Let's just keep 'em building cars.

[Neubob]

North Koreans Cross DMZ

And warning shots are fired.

Kim Jong Il, in addition to being at the cutting edge of fashion and hair style, also appears to be a genius,

[Seagoon]

Hi Neubob,

Originally posted by Neubob
North Koreans Cross DMZ

And warning shots are fired.

Kim Jong Il, in addition to being at the cutting edge of fashion and hair style, also appears to be a genius,

I'm not sure how much to read into this given that the NKs are constantly breaching the border, sending in spies, kidnapping teams, and so on. They are literally some of the worst neighbors on earth.  So I don't know if this latest violation has any direct bearing on the situation or whether Kim's commanders were trying to figure out where the Anti-personnel mines started for their latest map of the defenses on the DMZ.

I have several friends currently guarding the DMZ and whenever they are up there, they are as alert as they can be. The NKs play scarey games, and one is never quite sure whether the latest tunnel or border crossing is in fact the tip of a very big spear.

[RAIDER14]

"thats hot"

[Yeager]

I wouldnt wish with the ROKs on anyone.  Those guys knows how to tear new *******s.

One thing is for sure, the world needs the economy of South Korea a hell of alot more than it needs the millions of starving mouths of the North. Either reunite all into one free Korea or destroy the North before they destroy themselves along WITH south Korea.

Why the hell is everyone waiting for the North to attack first????

[RAIDER14]

Originally posted by Yeager
I wouldnt wish with the ROKs on anyone.  Those guys knows how to tear new *******s.

One thing is for sure, the world needs the economy of South Korea a hell of alot more than it needs the millions of starving mouths of the North. Either reunite all into one free Korea or destroy the North before they destroy themselves along WITH south Korea.

Why the hell is everyone waiting for the North to attack first????

we should bomb the hell outta them

[Squire]

Its an interesting debate regarding NKs conventional military, a lot of it is unknown, they have not fought a serious war in 53 years, and  I have my doubts they would do very well against the ROK, even with no US/Allied help at all. I know they boast a "million man army", but that wouldn't be the first time that turned out to be somewhat hollow. Nuke question aside, of course. With no Soviet $ money propping them up, their military has shrunk in real fighting power since the 1980s I think. There is also the question of sustaining an army in the field. They may be more afraid of a military confrontation than the ROK is.

Japan is more than capable of expanding their military, just as any country is. Right now they spend @ 6 percent GDP on the SD Forces. They are a wealthy country with a lot of technological knowhow and industry.