Author Topic: What was that maneauver? (Read 1579 times)

Bubbajj · « **on:** October 07, 2006, 09:51:27 PM »

Bangin around in the LWMA and ran into a guy flying a Hurc. I think Ball ran into him too, I saw them exchange salutes. He would run toward ya almost a head on and then pull up as he passed by. It seemed he was pulling up and over the top to come around for a really quick solution. What was he doing? He was coming around really quick and I couldn't keep up in my FM2. He was moving and had to be bleeding off E to make the quick turn around and yet have enough to roll over the top quickly. I would lose sight as he went by and couldn't see exactly what the move was. Any ideas? He smoked me 3 for 3.

bozon · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2006, 10:05:33 PM »

sounds like he was simply lead turning you. He starts pulling up a little before you pass him and gain a few angles head start.

In addition, if you allowed him to merge not horizontaly, but with him climbing and you diving, he'll have gravity on his side. coming over the top is much faster than coming over the bottom since gravity is pulling into the turn and not out of the turn. Add to that that he'll have a smaller circle due to lower speed and it will look like an insta-turn from your POV.

SAS_KID · « **Reply #2 on:** October 07, 2006, 10:07:50 PM »

an immelin turn is what it sounds like.

Bubbajj · « **Reply #3 on:** October 07, 2006, 10:20:15 PM »

I'll have to go to TA to test a few theories. He was bringin that Hurc around and I can usually keep up with a Hurc in a turn fight. It's time I start to learn how to fly. I've been messin around just flying for fun. If I'm gonna get serious I need to learn some of these combat maneuvers. I think it was Tazzo or something like that in the hurc last night.

fuzeman · « **Reply #4 on:** October 07, 2006, 11:38:52 PM »

Remember you can always film your fights with the 'alt r' command and watch the fight from the opponents point of view, a very nice feature.

As others have said, sounds like a vertical lead turn which would sort of look like an Immelman in an offhand way.

Bubbajj · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2006, 12:21:41 AM »

WOW! I did not know you could do that. Watch the moves of the experts! Will be filming from here on out.

Ball · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2006, 05:46:49 AM »

i cant remember, was it jaxxo?

hurricane can hang very well, always gotta be wary of that when you rope em.

Schutt · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:30:49 AM »

Sounds like he pulled up early on mege and cut throttle to pull around verry tight and get a shot into you while you are pulling up and around in a bigger, energy conserving turn.

On a merge you can pull and immelman, which is a good merge but a verry common maneuver, so the other guy will be expecting this. But you can pull the immelman, which is halve a loop up then halve roll to get the plane upright again, "energy conserving" where you try to gain as much alt as possible and then inf the following fight try to use your better energy state. On the other hand you can cut throttle and pull the loop as tight as possible, including starting it early which will get you around quick and for a good shooting position if the other pilot does a standard energy conserving immelman.

Sounds like he did that.

humble · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2006, 11:55:25 AM »

When you are merging one on one there are a couple of basics to understand.

There are basically two forms of merge...and angles merge or an E merge. The angles merge is more aggresive and trades energy for angular position (meaning how close he is to your dead six)....

What your describing is an angles merge. I'd bet he was slightly under you as you engaged...probably with just a bit of horizontal seperation as well. He was pulling up into you (probably with throttle chopped) before your flight paths actually crossed....so if a flat nose to nose merge gives you an "angle" of 360...his combination of vertical and horizontal seperation actually give him some angles....lets say he's at 330....now he pulls into you on a vertical oblique....he's at 270 or less (before you even react. Since he's slowed his plane by pulling up his nose is coming around faster then yours and he gains angles...lets say to 180. Now your pulling hard to try and turn with him....your fast so your fighting your E state and turning poorly while blowing your E advantage. Meanwhile he's actually pulling fewer G's but turning better (he's close to his optimal cornering speed)...so in literally less then a second he's eaten up all the remaining angles and caught you in E state....

Basically just a well flown merge....

If you look back a few pages you'll find exactly this type of merge in a clip i posted (sure there are other examples). Is a P40b (me) vs a Nikki with alt & E. He gets sucked in by a combination of an angles merge as described with a bit of a "tail dangle" to make sure he goes "angles" instead of using his E on me....he never gets much more then 400 out in front of me the whole fight even though he's often going twice my speed or more. 90% of 1 on 1's are decided in the merge....lot of great sticks in the TA can help you get good quickly....

Schatzi · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2006, 12:06:40 PM »

A few links id like to throw in:

Mastering the Merge 1-3 on Net Aces.

Immelman vs turn and basic merges on 479th library.

This has not directly to do with merges, but plays a part:
Basic Energy theory

Bubbajj · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2006, 03:24:48 PM »

Jaxxo was it, Ball. Yeah, he came in a bit low ascending as I was coming down on him slightly. As we came around on each other he had me by about 20 or so degrees. The 20mm's made short work of my poor FM2. I'm not so sure he got an early start on me as when he broke to my left I broke with him and tried to come around. Like was stated above it probably involved burning E while doinging a vertical merge. Thanks for the ltraining links.

RedRadr · « **Reply #11 on:** October 17, 2006, 08:38:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by fuzeman
Remember you can always film your fights with the 'alt r' command and watch the fight from the opponents point of view, a very nice feature.

how do you do this?

tks

Schatzi · « **Reply #12 on:** October 17, 2006, 09:52:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by RedRadr
Quote
Originally posted by fuzeman
Remember you can always film your fights with the 'alt r' command and watch the fight from the opponents point of view, a very nice feature.

how do you do this?

tks

You can start/stop recording film in game with ALT_R. While recording, you have a R in the upper left corner of screen.

Films are automatically stored in your HTC/Aces High II/Films folder under film##.ahf. You can watch them with the in build film viewer (ahfilm.exe) in your game install. Or you can access it through the start menu START > PROGRAMS > Aces High II > Aces High Film Viewer. After the first launch of the viewer, the ahf format is tied to the viewer and you can simply double click films to watch them. Note that the film viewer cant be launched while the game is still running.

I usually watch films in external view, with trails, icons and recorded views checked. Gives a good overview over the fight.

You can switch to another plane in the viewer by double clicking on the name of the pilot in the column on the right side. Note though that if you have recorded views checked, you will see YOUR OWN views, not the one the enemy used.

You can use the numpad to look around in the viewer, just like in the game. You can also adjust your internal head positions like in game (arrow keys, page up/down, F10 to save).

_

SlapShot · « **Reply #13 on:** October 17, 2006, 10:05:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bubbajj
Jaxxo was it, Ball. Yeah, he came in a bit low ascending as I was coming down on him slightly. As we came around on each other he had me by about 20 or so degrees. The 20mm's made short work of my poor FM2. I'm not so sure he got an early start on me as when he broke to my left I broke with him and tried to come around. Like was stated above it probably involved burning E while doinging a vertical merge. Thanks for the ltraining links.

It sounds like Jaxxo was slower than you ... so as humble pointed out ... he was probably sitting on or close his best cornering speed allowing him to pop flaps while you were not ... hence he turned inside you with ease.

I fly both of these planes and if both are at equal speed ... and both are at a speed where you can dump flaps ... it can be quite the fight ... both are excellent knife-fighters ... but once the Hurri gets the cannons on ya ... OUCH !!!

TexMurphy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 17, 2006, 10:50:55 AM »

No pun intended Bubbajj....

But omfg do we have a problem when our co players get suppriced, shocked and ask wtf when someone does a proper merge and immel vs their flat turn...

What pisses me off is that so many vets sit and whine on the forums about HOing dweebs and skilless dweebs while never ever offering a single word of advice.

Sure help has to be sought for but still it has to be offered as well...

Bubbajj what time zone are you in?

Tex