Author Topic: Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's  (Read 814 times)

Offline Wilbus

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« on: October 08, 2006, 06:02:07 AM »
Have been living in a cave for the past few years it seems like.

I used to stay very updated on every new relase, CPU's, video cards etc before I enlisted.

During my time in the Navy, and now the few years after my "release" I haven't been able to keep up as well as I used to.

What I need is some quick guide to the modern CPU's.

Any good links to read up on it? I've been over at Tomshardware some which is great but it doesn't give me the quick guide of differences I am looking for.

And why do each company (AMD and Intel) use so many different sockets? What are the advantages etc...

Lots of questions I know...

Any help appriciated :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Skuzzy

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 07:12:49 AM »
On the Intel front, the LGA-775 socket is the latest.  It was also used by the Prescott core Pentium 4's, which were an abomination.  The current generation of CPU from Intel is the Conroe core.  It still uses the LGA-775, but it does require the motherboard/BIOS to support the Conroe cores.

The Conroe based CPU's are the current performance leader.  They also run very cool.  Intel even got pretty agressive with the pricing.  It forced AMD to lower thier prices, which is a first.

AMD currently does not have a performance competitor to most of the Conroe core family.

About the only real downside to the Conroe family is the requirement for DDR2 RAM for most of the better motherboards.  That RAM (PC6400) runs hot and really does not offer much of a performance increase (if any) over DDR1 (PC3200) RAM, due to latencies.

Search for Conroe to find out more about it and to see a bunch of comparisons to the various AMD parts.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Wilbus

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 08:12:06 AM »
Thanks alot :)

What about the different Pentium D processors? Will they be retired now?

I've seen Pentium D processors that cost the same as the newer Conroe ones, do they offer any advantages? Speed?
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Schutt

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2006, 08:37:14 AM »
(A) CPUs

Intel has a conroe core 2 duo cpu which is currently the best cpu out there but not cheap, specially the motherboards are quite expensive. Best performance, lowest power consumption, best performance per dollar BUT a lot of dollars. If you buy intel you want a conroe and a motherboard that is fully conroe compatible, there are only a few of em. Some of the 975 chipset motherboards and all of the 965 type motherboards. Currently the 965 boards come out slower but most people beleave with bios updates they will be on par soon.

Conroe is 1 silicone chip with 2 coupled cores which have 1 big L2 cache together, making it fast to transfer data between the cpus and providing max performance by "uneven" split of the cache. One core may get 3mb from it while the other one gets 1mb, giving them much better memory performance than a 50/50 split.

Verry complicated memory controller and shorter pipelines hide the low latency of the ddr2 memory.
  • Pretty fast
  • Low power consumtion
  • Overclocks like hell
  • Best performance
  • Quite expensive
  • Must have DDR2 RAM



AMD Has the AMD64 x2 CPU, which is a bit older than the conroe part and can be obtained for socket 939 and for AM2. AM2 is the new socket and runs with DDR2 ram just like intel conroe, 939 is older and verry reliable as well as having cheap motherboards. Also there is an AMD64 which is single core, i. e. only one CPU on the chip. Single core compare to dual core in performance when they have the same clock speed at about 1:1.4 , so dual core is overall far away from double performance. Best chipset is the top of the line nvidia chipset (dont know which that is atm).

Good cpu which runs fast on 32 and 64 bit, it has the memory controller on the cpu (instead of in the chipset as for intel) which reduces memory access latency. 2 cpu cores with 2 caches on one chip, cache is 512mb per core. The cpus are linked with a "hypertransport" bus (pretty fast).

  • good enough performance for AH
  • ok power consumption, no heat trouble like Pentium D
  • cheap overall system possible with ok motherboard prices
  • can have DDR or DDR2 ram
  • AM2 socket said to be able to run the quad core chip next year (never know for sure though)
  • Slower than conroe
  • smaller cache
  • not good for show off (conroe is more en vouge)



In future intel and AMD plan on going for quad core cpus, while intel seems to be closer to it they just put two dual cores in one package, which will give some performance trouble. But AMD seems to be far away from quad core, they plan to have all 4 on one die which would be better though. I heard AM2 socket would support the quad core cpus, but that is not certain. The first Intel quad seems to be out soon and run on their current motherboards. But it will put down double energy consumption -> using to much power.

Old intel Pentium D chips are two single core chips in one package, use a lot of power and run verry hot, still if you dont care about that they are obtained cheap since they are slower and use more energy than the new conroes.

(B)Motherboards
You need one with the top of the line chipset, be it nvidia, intel or ati. Take care that it has the interfaces you need, some have no IDE (cant plug in old drives), no parallel port (throw away old printer) or whatever else had to go away to make room for the new and fancy stuff.
Make sure the ram runs in the motherboard, since some combos dont work. Most times it is best to buy ram+motherboard together so you can swap the ram if it doesnt work on that motherboard.

Current graphic card slot to go is PCIe , which is a serial interface and can be multiplied, that means you can have 1,2,4,8 or 16 lines for one slot. For graphics card it must be a x16 (16 lines slot). There are boards with have two slots for graphic cards they are either "SLI" or "Crossfire" compatible, which means they will run with 2 nvidia cards or 2 ati cards. Some of these switch the lines if you use 2 graphic cards, giving each card a x8 slot. The boards which deliver 2 times x16 are better.

SATA is the current interface for harddisks, but there are some diffrences in speed. Basically its one channle for each harddisk, plug in a small cable and it works... much better than ide installation wise.


(C)Graphic card
Currently Nvidia and ATI are the only ones that produce graphic chips that are  worth it for gaming, the cards get made by other guys but inside is a nvidia or ati chip. The top of the line graphic chips need a lot of power (more than the cpu), therefor you need a verry good power supply. Be carefull with the names... the cheap chips are pretty close to the good ones, and more ram is not better if it is slower.
So while some cheaper cards offer 512mb ram they are not necessarily better than ones that offer 256 kick a** super fast ram.


edit: Saw your questions. Pentium D processors run verry hot and are slower than conroe, eaven if clocked higher. Fastest pentium D probably doesnt beat the cheapest conroe. I would stay away from them.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 08:39:40 AM by Schutt »

Offline Wilbus

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2006, 09:24:11 AM »
W00T! Nice rundown Schutt thanks alot.

I need to spend some hours to get back up to speed in all this but your info helped me alot!

You said the Conroe was expensive? The ones I've looked at all look "fairly" cheap to me, the 6600 is about 350 dollars it looks like.  4mb och L2 cache.

Then again, I am not sure what is considered cheap anymore as it's been some time since I last bought a computer (2003 I believe, it still works though).

I am getting hungry for a new one though (after I've gotten my self a DSRL) :D
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Krusty

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2006, 12:07:25 PM »
Check out this motherboard

I had somebody show this to me and I ended up getting it so I could transition to PCIE graphics but keep everything else I have (and also so I could slowly piece by piece upgrade to conroe).

It's got conroe support AND DDR. The PCIE is really 4x or 6x not 16x, but against 2 high end systems, one using this, one using another mobo, the difference was only 10% (acceptable to me, at this point in time).


The real seller, for me, was the fact that it runs 533mhz FSB and 1066mhz FSB. You see I have 533 now. Conroe takes 1066. Most mobos just have 533/800 or 800/1066, but this is the only one I saw that had all those other features AND allowed me to install it without buying a new CPU.


As for the Pent D's, they're not going anywhere yet. They're dropping in price drastically from what they were 6 months ago. Now a 3GHz Pent D costs less than my P4 2.66GHz on a Prescott core cost me back then. Big price drops. I think they'll eventually replace the celerons as the "budget" cpu, maybe. (*wild guess*). Intel will monopolize off the fact that D's have dual cores, despite the fact that they're not conroe and don't have any of the benefits.

Offline Schutt

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2006, 12:10:24 PM »
I have prices only in euro since i am from germany.
Athlon64 3700 80€,, fitting motherboard 90€= 170
Athlon64 x2 4800 is 180 €, fitting motherboard 90€= 270

Intel E6300 is 180€, fitting motherboard 200€= 380.

Giving the amd system, while admittedly being slower, a 110€ price advantage. So if the intel system fits your budget it gives better performance, but if you want a system that is not too expensive it might be good to think of AMD.

Schatzi just bought a computer last month and went with the athlon 3700 which is only single core but runs ah2 nicely.

When you want to upgrade real hot in the hope the system will then serve longer, be fast enough longer and be the best avail when you buy it of course intel E6600,E6700  and E6800 are the way to go. But if it has to fit in a 600$ budget that is hard with cpu&motherboard already at >500$

Offline Schutt

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2006, 12:30:01 PM »
Cool motherboard, can you plug in DDR AND DDR2 memory or only one kind at a time? I suspect you can not mix em which would make it hard to upgrade memory later on.

Also it has old type 20 pin power connector in a wierd place instead of 24 pin one, make sure you power cable is long enough.

But it does good for what krusty sayed... being able to use an old cpu and swap in a conroe later. Sounds like good plan.

I do not beleave Pentium D will replace the Celerons, mounting 2 dies in one package is to much work & the dies are to big. To produce a cheap celeron they need to produce a chip with small die which is cheaper to build. Still they will keep pentium Ds around to close the gap between conroes and celerons untill the conroe price drops and the next generation of celerons gets produced. Also it was anounced the cheap brand will be named pentium then... no longer celerons.

So you might be right in that the next celerons will be named pentium D and maybe eaven have 2 cores, but they will be conroes with small cache instead of real pentium Ds. At least thats what i beleave... but i am not doing the marketing of intel.

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2006, 08:06:18 PM »
The memory types are mutually exclusive. Only one at a time.

I read reviews on it that complained of the cable placement, but my power cables reach it fine, so I guess I've got no problem with it. It doesn't get in the way of the CPU fan or anything.

Offline ozrocker

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2006, 04:54:33 AM »
I am currently using an Asus A7V880 MoBo, Slot A AMD 1800+ cpu oc's to 1.97 Gigs. Getting FR's in 90's :P for all you highend, modern, system buyers. Running 1024 ram, PNY 6600GT with tweaked(flashed) bios.
You don't always have to spend a fortune, especially, if like me, you don't have one :)
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Offline Connection

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2006, 01:17:19 PM »
I ordered that ASRock Dual VSTA and a Core 2 Duo E6400. Will run it with 2x512 DDR1 and an AGP Geforce 6800GT. Will report results.

Offline Wilbus

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2006, 01:58:59 PM »
Thanks all! You've  been very helpfull. We'll see how it turns out in a few months or so when I feel a really serious need to upgrade :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Nomak

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2006, 09:29:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Schutt
(
Old intel Pentium D chips are two single core chips in one package, use a lot of power and run verry hot, still if you dont care about that they are obtained cheap since they are slower and use more energy than the new conroes.

 


I am not claiming to be any kind of guru..... however I am going to disagree with you here.

The D805 is an amazing chip.

I bought mine for $100 bucks and it kicks arse.  Although I dont "Know" this I am willing to bet it will perform with the lower end conroes.  As you pointed out I did have to spend alot on my MB (about $220.00) ...... I felt it was worth it as the 805 is the same socket as the conroe and I am very upgradeable in the future.
( edit..... and it is true 16x16 pcie)

My set up.....

Thermaltake super-tower
Antec 550 W Power Supply
Asus P5N32-SLI Deluxe
2 X 1 Gig Corsair XMS 240 pin DDR800
EVGA 7900 GT Superclocked
WD Raptor 150 Gig 10K rpm
Pentium D805 Dual core 2.66 clocked to 4.0 Gig
Zalman cpu cooler (air)

I run AH easily at 85- 150 FPS with res @ 1280x1024,  textures @ 1024 running high res pack and sliders "Almost" all the way to "Detail"

I also run cpu temps no higher than 55c under load.

How can u beat a $100 dollar duel core that runs @ 4.0 gig?

Does anyone have a simular conroe set up that mabye we could compare benchmarks?  I would be interested to see how my 805 really stacks up.

Again..... not claiming to know a whole lot of anything really.....  Just my opinion here.

Dave
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 09:36:21 PM by Nomak »

Offline Schutt

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 03:49:27 PM »
CC good point there nomak.

Like you said it is an option to use a cheap Pentium D and overclock it pretty much to get good performance at a compatible price. I didnt account for it because it generates a lot of heat and might not hold 5 years. Also might give trouble if you have high room temprature, but puts up verry good performance and is an alternative.

ciao schutt

Offline RDSaustinTX

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Been living in a cave, need some updates on CPU's
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2006, 12:34:15 AM »
Quote
yada...

The D805 is an amazing chip.

yada...

How can u beat a $100 dollar duel core that runs @ 4.0 gig?

Does anyone have a simular conroe set up that mabye we could compare benchmarks?  I would be interested to see how my 805 really stacks up.
 

 
Toms Hardware Guide started the 805 overclocker craze, and they included it (OC'd) in their benchmark comparisons against stock Conroes. Conroe rules everything out there.
 
However, at 4ghz, it is probably keeping that cave warm.   ;)