Author Topic: so long habeus corpus.  (Read 5945 times)

Offline ReyPirin

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2006, 11:33:37 PM »
we're gonna be liberated with abullet to the back of our head FREEDOM BULLETS FOR EVERYONE!!!!

Offline RedTop

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2006, 11:44:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
RedTop, I'm talking about laws that affect US citizens.  If this specific one doesn't, then I'm mistaken.

As for the rest of your screed, it's not worth dignifying with a response.  You're a sad excuse for a citizen, and you're fooling yourself if you really think you have all the same rights that you did before the september 11th attacks.

You are entitled to exactly as much respect as you showed, which is to say, none.


Sad excuse for a citizen? ok.

Opinons are like azzes..everyone has one and they all stink I suppose.

Unless of course they agree with ya

Heres to your bitter life..........Cheers Sir.
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline Shuckins

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2006, 11:46:13 PM »
Chair....you are one and only one "adversary" posting in this thread.

I was speaking generally, and you knew it.  You need to come up with a rebuttal other than the "strawman" one....it's getting rather long in the tooth.

Leaving that aside as being beside the point and non-productive, how about posting some numbers and names of U.S. citizens who have lost some of their rights and/or been thrown in prison without the benefit of habeas corpus.

I'm thinking it would be a very short list...virtually nonexistent in fact.  This law is aimed at terrorists who are unaffiliated with any foreign power recognized as a legitimate national entity by the U.S. government, and will not directly affect any of our citizens or the uniformed combatants of a hostile power.  But you also know that as well.

Ergo, I can only assume that the righteous indignation evidenced here is mainly election year rhetoric and posturing.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 11:48:29 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Debonair

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #63 on: October 19, 2006, 12:49:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
I DONT THING AN ACT OF CONGRESS WILL EVER PREVENT SR-71 DRIVERS OR CREW FROM GETTING LAID


Habus score puss rofl, its a "pun"...
...so does article 1 section 9 of te constituion mean this thread is over?
no, teh hitlars will always fight teh red pinkos.

your next president

Offline x0847Marine

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2006, 03:49:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Chair....you are one and only one "adversary" posting in this thread.

I was speaking generally, and you knew it.  You need to come up with a rebuttal other than the "strawman" one....it's getting rather long in the tooth.

Leaving that aside as being beside the point and non-productive, how about posting some numbers and names of U.S. citizens who have lost some of their rights and/or been thrown in prison without the benefit of habeas corpus.

I'm thinking it would be a very short list...virtually nonexistent in fact.  This law is aimed at terrorists who are unaffiliated with any foreign power recognized as a legitimate national entity by the U.S. government, and will not directly affect any of our citizens or the uniformed combatants of a hostile power.  But you also know that as well.

Ergo, I can only assume that the righteous indignation evidenced here is mainly election year rhetoric and posturing.


That's not even the point.

This is a lazy knee jerk reaction, and a typical political 'non response' to a real problem; national security. We are not safe as long as anyone can WALK across our border. Is that not common sense?

Signing a piece of paper is lazy, but makes for great campaign rhetoric, and I agree with you.. this literally focuses on a select few real bad mofos, what? maybe 5 dozen people on the entire planet at most?, not the public at large.

Meanwhile thousands of threats to both you and I that waltz across the border DAILY are being IGNORED, or accepted like 'business as usual', too politically sensitive to address. So I ask you, whats better?; passing a law that should apply to only a few dozen bad guys but could easily be turned on you or I, or addressing the real problem of THOUSANDS of criminals who walk across our border daily?

Its a simple answer.

I'd be supporting this all day IF the clone retards in charge had at least made an attempt to address the real problem, rather than going straight to adjusting the rules that could affect you and I.

I dont consider invading a country who citizens have done much less harm to US citizens that our neighbors citizens, as an attempt at making us safe. Real problmes have been dismissed in favor possibly of fewer rights for you & I.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2006, 06:27:25 AM »
Alas, another :noid :O :noid :O :noid :O  thread. Brought on by an article meant to incite such feelings as close as possible to an election. Such a stunning surprise.:eek:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline oboe

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2006, 07:23:49 AM »
Quote
Article I, Section 9, U.S. Constitution
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.


To my way of thinking, the MCA is clearly unconstitutional.   There is no "Rebellion" going on, and characterizing the domestic terrorist threat as an "Invasion" seems like an impossible leap.    No need to discriminate between Aliens and Citizens; the Constitution plainly says the Writ shall not be suspended, except for two specific cases.      

Read the text of the MCA posted above, then read Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution.   I don't see any wiggle room at all for the "original intent" crowd.

Now, who's arguing for an elastic Constitution?   This board has turned upside down.  Conservatives have become Liberals and Liberals, Conservatives.    

It'd be interesting to see Toad weigh in on this one.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 07:26:10 AM by oboe »

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2006, 08:42:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
IT says you can appeal a judgement of the military commissions, but it doesn't say you can appeal the classification "unlawful enemy combatant", by Bush's tribunal.


Yes, it does. That is what the appeal process all the way to the US Supreme Court is for.

Offline lazs2

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2006, 08:56:57 AM »
I don't think that anything that is unconstitutional should be allowed to stand.

Saying that... I realize that my constitutional rights are being smashed every day..  have been since before I was born.

I can get angry and I do.   I can vote for democrats but that is like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.   It is like voting for stalin cause you think churchill is too socialst.

But yeah.... republicans do bad things...  sometimes very bad things... worse... they create powers that the socialists will use against me in the future.

And that is what most of us don't get.... evey time you give up more of your rights...  you give them up for good... you give them to whoever is in power all the way down the line.

When you vote.....

Don't vote democrat no matter what...

Never vote for a new tax.

Never vote for a ban on anything or anyone elses freedom.

If you can't bring yourself to vote republican.... vote libertarian but realize... you may be letting a democrat win by doing so.

lazs

Offline Rolex

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2006, 08:57:47 AM »
As the case of Joseph Padilla has shown us, you, I, or anyone can be arrested and held in detention as long as the federal government wants to, without any charges. They won't come out and say, "We don't need to charge him, and we'll keep him as long as we want," but they consistently trying to deny any overt checks on their power to do so. This is a slam-dunk, already-passed, fait accompli type of thing.

The precedent has already been set with Padilla and a few others, and once the feds discovered that there is no formidable public outrage, it's only a matter of slowly, ever so slowly, increasing the frequency with which it could be done by this or any subsequent administration.

If you arrest 10,000 people tomorrow without charge, the public would never stand for it, but if you get them used to it gradually, they'll not only support it but heap scorn and contempt on anyone who would criticize something so critical to our safety.

By gradually acclimatizing the population to detention without charge, they could slowly make it normal and acceptable, and eventually the practice can expand beyond supposedly one-off "emergency" cases like Padilla, or the terrorist of the week.

The same goes for torture. Today, if you object to torture, you have to justify your position, because Gitmo and Abu Ghraib have inoculated people against the idea that torture is, by definition, wrong. I'm beginning to understand how the abolitionists felt at the very beginning, when they were the only ones saying, "Slavery is wrong."

When I tell people, "Torture is wrong," and I have to argue the point, that leaves a very surreal, bizarre, and uneasy feeling in the back of my mind.

We shouldn't note our concerns until we have a full-fledged police state? We shouldn't say, "If we're not careful, we'll end up with a police state," until we do, in fact, have a police state?

You can be arrested and held without charge as long as the government wants to hold you. If they want you to be tortured, they can have you secreted away to a prison where there is no oversight, and no accountability if you're beaten to death. Now, I know many here would like to rephrase this as "Oh my god, they're killing all the babies, everywhere, without exception!" so I seem like a lunatic, instead of addressing what I'm actually saying.

The problem is that what I'm saying has already come to pass. You're not reading a lunatic describing hypothetical doomesday scenarios, but a concerned person who is worried about individual occurrences that can easily become a trend if we don't oppose them on principle.

You see, I care about the principle, and if you care about the principle, you don't wait for x or x+500 cases, because it's wrong the very first time you see it. If that first time is met with swift correction, and the person is freed (or charged, so due process is honored), the people responsible fired or demoted, and a public commitment made to due process, then no, you don't take to the streets decrying a headlong slide into tyranny.

But, when the President and Attorney General of the United States firmly stand by their decision, and repudiate any possible oversight over, or check on this authority, then, well, yes, I'm going to be concerned.

At what point would you consider it a legitimate concern? 10 people? 100? 10,000?

Offline lazs2

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2006, 09:01:10 AM »
Oh... I agree with rolex in theory on this..  It could get as bad as he says... nothing to stop it..  worse.. as I have said, the next guy might be a socialist who thinks I am the problem.

still..  I don't think I have any alternative at this point other than voting republican.

I have written to all the politicos in my sphere with my protest tho.

lazs

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2006, 09:17:41 AM »
This new bill seems to offer protection to those classified as unlawful enemy combatants. Something they did not have before. They can now challenge their status all the way to ther Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court decides that they are unlawful enemy combatants then they are subject to the provisions of this bill.

Here's the Geneva Convention article dealing with militias:

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


Certainly none of the insurgents in Iraq qualify legally as combatants nor did many, if not all, of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Padilla should be shot as a spy.

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2006, 09:37:30 AM »
I'm gonna take that last a bit further. I believe that any and every terrorist hiding in this country with the intent to do it harm is technically a spy and can be lawfully executed if captured. Anyone care to refute this?

Offline Viking

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2006, 09:59:19 AM »
You're not a spy unless you work for a foreign government. And even if that is the case a spy is not a spy until so proven in a court of law.

Offline Chairboy

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2006, 09:59:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think that anything that is unconstitutional should be allowed to stand.

Saying that... I realize that my constitutional rights are being smashed every day..  have been since before I was born.

I can get angry and I do.   I can vote for democrats but that is like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face.   It is like voting for stalin cause you think churchill is too socialst.

But yeah.... republicans do bad things...  sometimes very bad things... worse... they create powers that the socialists will use against me in the future.

And that is what most of us don't get.... evey time you give up more of your rights...  you give them up for good... you give them to whoever is in power all the way down the line.

When you vote.....

Don't vote democrat no matter what...

Never vote for a new tax.

Never vote for a ban on anything or anyone elses freedom.

If you can't bring yourself to vote republican.... vote libertarian but realize... you may be letting a democrat win by doing so.

lazs
I agree with everything Lazs has said in the above.

He makes an excellent point: The rights many of you are so cheerfully giving away to trade for a false sense of security are going to result in you being stomped on by Democrats, Socialists, and other nanny-statists.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis