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Author Topic: so long habeus corpus.  (Read 6381 times)

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2006, 10:08:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
You're not a spy unless you work for a foreign government. And even if that is the case a spy is not a spy until so proven in a court of law.


Certainly a spy must be tried in court, no argument there. However, Al Qaeda is not a foreign government in the traditional sense but I believe that a person who claims allegiance to Al Qaeda and is hiding in this country, collecting information and planning to do harm is still a spy.

The Geneva Convention defines the lawful execution of war. It does not detail the treatment for those that act beyond it's scope. There is no guideline for dealing with these terrorists/insugents, hence the need for this bill.
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Offline GtoRA2

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2006, 10:23:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Certainly a spy must be tried in court, no argument there. However, Al Qaeda is not a foreign government in the traditional sense but I believe that a person who claims allegiance to Al Qaeda and is hiding in this country, collecting information and planning to do harm is still a spy.

The Geneva Convention defines the lawful execution of war. It does not detail the treatment for those that act beyond it's scope. There is no guideline for dealing with these terrorists/insugents, hence the need for this bill.



He should be hung for treason, after he gets his day in court, like any other US citizen that betrays their country.
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Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2006, 10:27:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GtoRA2
He should be hung for treason, after he gets his day in court, like any other US citizen that betrays their country.


Treason works for me as well but US citizens have been tried as spies for spying on the US.
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Offline Viking

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2006, 11:19:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
Certainly a spy must be tried in court, no argument there. However, Al Qaeda is not a foreign government in the traditional sense but I believe that a person who claims allegiance to Al Qaeda and is hiding in this country, collecting information and planning to do harm is still a spy.

The Geneva Convention defines the lawful execution of war. It does not detail the treatment for those that act beyond it's scope. There is no guideline for dealing with these terrorists/insugents, hence the need for this bill.


Al Quada is not a nation so the Geneva Convention isn't relevant to this problem. A US citizen or resident alien giving information to Al Quada would only be an accomplice to whatever crime Al Quada plans to do next. And in a court of law you should have to prove that the information actually aided Al Quada in committing a crime. Simply giving someone information is not illegal unless the information is classified … but then again the US does not have a secrecy act, so…

You speak of war and the GC, spies and traitors. There is no war on Al Quada exactly because they're not a nation or government. They are deranged stateless criminals, nothing more.
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Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2006, 11:30:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Al Quada is not a nation so the Geneva Convention isn't relevant to this problem. A US citizen or resident alien giving information to Al Quada would only be an accomplice to whatever crime Al Quada plans to do next. And in a court of law you should have to prove that the information actually aided Al Quada in committing a crime. Simply giving someone information is not illegal unless the information is classified … but then again the US does not have a secrecy act, so…

You speak of war and the GC, spies and traitors. There is no war on Al Quada exactly because they're not a nation or government. They are deranged stateless criminals, nothing more.


You make a good argument for not applying the Geneva Convention to Al Qaeda conspirators. All the more reason to establish lawful guidelines in dealing with them.
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Offline Viking

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2006, 11:39:54 AM »
Why should the Geneva Convention apply to civilian criminals?

Stay with me for a moment…


Let's say I've decided that the Norwegian government is just a US lap-dog and I'm going to make my voice heard. So … I write a political statement, grab two hand grenades and blow my self up in a café killing 14 people including 3 children.

Or…

Let's say I've decided that life is unbearable and I'm going to end it with a bang. So … I write a suicide note, grab two hand grenades and blow my self up in a café killing 14 people including 3 children.


Does the Geneva Convention apply to either of these cases? I don't think so. Have I committed treason in either case? Nope. Have I committed a crime? Yes.
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Offline Chairboy

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2006, 11:40:53 AM »
Why not use the _existing_ legal guidelines?  We already have procedures for handling people who murder and assault people.  Timothy McVeigh was handled under the existing legal system and executed, why are special new laws that can be used to subvert the constitution needed?
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2006, 11:43:48 AM »
You seem to believe this bill is aimed at US citizens. It isn't. I'm not sure it applies to them at all but haven't studied it yet. How should we deal with non US citizens that are [unlawful] enemy combatants captured in a foreign land? Our civil laws don't apply and that is what this bill was created for.

Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Why should the Geneva Convention apply to civilian criminals?

Stay with me for a moment…


Let's say I've decided that the Norwegian government is just a US lap-dog and I'm going to make my voice heard. So … I write a political statement, grab two hand grenades and blow my self up in a café killing 14 people including 3 children.

Or…

Let's say I've decided that life is unbearable and I'm going to end it with a bang. So … I write a suicide note, grab two hand grenades and blow my self up in a café killing 14 people including 3 children.


Does the Geneva Convention apply to either of these cases? I don't think so. Have I committed treason in either case? Nope. Have I committed a crime? Yes.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2006, 11:48:39 AM by lukster »
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Offline Urchin

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2006, 11:44:54 AM »
I really believe that Clinton is at fault, and Democrats are traitors to this great nations true Republican heritage.  

Did you know that all the cool founding fathers were Republicans?  

Every last one of them.  

True story.
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Offline Viking

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2006, 11:48:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
You seem to believe this bill is aimed at US citizens. It isn't. I'm not sure it applies to them at all but haven't studied it yet. How should we deal with non US citizens that are enemy combatants captured in a foreign land? Our civil laws don't apply and that is what this bill was created for.


That's not what we are debating.


Quote
Originally posted by lukster
I'm gonna take that last a bit further. I believe that any and every terrorist hiding in this country with the intent to do it harm is technically a spy and can be lawfully executed if captured. Anyone care to refute this?


"…this country…"
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Offline lukster

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2006, 11:51:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
That's not what we are debating.




"…this country…"


I didn't realize you were debating me on this point. I haven't looked up the official definition of a spy and it may require providing info to a foreign "government" but I'll stand by what I said until I see contrary info.
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Offline mosgood

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2006, 12:05:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hawco
Just wondering how long it is till the goons start knocking on doors delcaring us to be 'enemy combatants"



Actually, this is all done because the Repubs are planning on fixing the elections with their fancy dancy new electronic voting machines and if they get caught they can arrest anyone that gives them any grief about it.....      :noid
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Offline Viking

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2006, 12:06:15 PM »
Actually your right Iron! Bush made it so in 2003!

The "Police State Enhancement Act" of 2003 expanded the definition of espionage or "enemy" activity to include otherwise lawful activity, as well as activity that knowingly or not assists a foreign "power." And that power, of course, can now be a "terrorist cell" or even an individual. From section 102: "Showing that the intelligence gathering violates the laws of the United States is both unnecessary and counterproductive." Especially since searching the Internet at your local library is not, as of yet, otherwise illegal.

I'm genuinely dumbfounded! I'm SO glad I'm not living in the US these days.
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Offline 2Slow

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2006, 12:42:10 PM »
"Those who would sacrifice a little Liberty for more Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety and will have none." Ben Franklin

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the rights of the people by the gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

“the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946

We are on a slippery slope with the precipice of tyranny before us.
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2Slow
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TANSTAAFL

Offline john9001

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so long habeus corpus.
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2006, 12:48:25 PM »
you just don't get it, the "enemy" is ploting to kill us, and you want to debate law.
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