Author Topic: The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's  (Read 2352 times)

Offline x0847Marine

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1412
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2006, 01:10:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hornet33
I went through Army boot in 89 and then Coast Guard boot in 92. Yes I did it twice, and neither time was I allowed to use the phone before week 4 and then it was a timed 10 minute call to one number with a DI standing right there.

At Army boot at Ft. Sill


I was at Ft. Sill in 1988-89, ah yes lovely Lawton OK, aka "the anus", for 0847 - artillery meteorology - school. The Marine detachment was near ICO hall. Our mess hall was the bomb, they'd make any kind of omelet, double extra cheese, bacon... pile it on.

It was cool watching those C130s swoop down, roll on the runway, then power up and take off.. 1 after another all day sometimes. We used to sit at the artillery bowl drinking beers watching those dudes... then we'd go around the corner where the Army boots got their heads shaved and mock them until the DI's barked at us to leave.

I wonder if those cruddy strip bars still there just off base.. they actually served beer in an 1 gallon empty milk jugs and had some hot trailer park sluts getting naked... oh man the fights we got into. Good times.

Offline Mightytboy

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 176
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2006, 01:26:42 PM »
How could anything be easier than the USAF boot camp?

I went through it in '82 and I actually gained 10lbs because I got out of shape.

The most we did in a day was 25 pushups 25 jumping jacks 25 sit ups and ran as a group for 1 1/4 mile.

Getting yelled at only happened if you didn't make your bed right or if your locker was out of order.

Offline 2Slow

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 720
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2006, 01:49:43 PM »
Cell phones?????  Give me a break!  USAF Basic, Nov-Dec '73.  At least 4 weeks before one was allowed one a collect call.

No one was allowed to strike us.  They could yell a lot.  The stress was very high.  I recall the first day as a Rainbow (Field jacket only, no uniforms issued yet - thus we were called Rainbow's) standing in one of many formations at attention (we had not earned a parade rest) and thinking, "It is only 8 weeks long, took me 926 weeks to get here.  I can do 8."

Life expectancy of 72 years equals 3744 weeks.  8 weeks is only 0.021367521367521367521367521 367521 % of your life.  Why foul up the rest of your life by failing boot?
2Slow
Secundum mihi , urbanus resurrectio
TANSTAAFL

Offline VOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2313
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2006, 01:56:45 PM »
The training standards have been steadily going down for years, and the quality of product being shipped to the Force has also been steadily going down for years.

The Headshed isn't making the connection or is satisfied with what they have created.

Offline RAIDER14

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2554
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2006, 05:25:44 PM »
Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore

Offline BlueJ1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5826
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2006, 05:41:02 PM »
December 13th is my first day at Great Lakes. 10 days after my birthday. Im not expecting it to be very hard. But having a 6 year advantage over other recruits I think it gives me a better mindset of what is coming. The hardest part I find is leaving my family and my friends behind. Im spending this month collecting addresses and phone numbers of my friends and family.


 Few weeks ago a buddy of mine just got back from Marine Corp. basic. First thing he said to me was "they still hit you."

I dont think any boot camp is any harder then the next. Its all up to the individual and what they make of it. But, I havnt been through all, or any of that matter, real boot camps. So my opinion means nothing.
U.S.N.
Aviation Electrician MH-60S
OEF 08-09'

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2006, 06:19:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mightytboy
How could anything be easier than the USAF boot camp?

I went through it in '82 and I actually gained 10lbs because I got out of shape.

The most we did in a day was 25 pushups 25 jumping jacks 25 sit ups and ran as a group for 1 1/4 mile.

Getting yelled at only happened if you didn't make your bed right or if your locker was out of order.


I'm an instructor for the Air Force and I yell a ton.  They get two mandated phone calls before the 5th week of training.  One apon arival to give their address to their parents and say very clearly "NO PACKAGES" and the other the weekend before the 4th week of training to coordinate travel plans with their parents.

Other than that what ever phone calls they get home they earn through performance and let me tell you it is one of the best carrots that I have to wave in their faces.  

On the stick side I'm allowed to make them do 2 min "exercise challenges" consisting of pushups, flutter kicks, and diamons.  I am restricted on where and when I can do this (IE at the mess hall and after chow time) and I am also restricted on the amount that I can beat them.

Other than that there's other games we play to stress them out such as you have 19 seconds to get here GO and when they fail they start over.

If an instructor is restricted on using his voice the recruits just arent getting the same experience.  You can scream all you want and still provide mentorship.  Some of these kids we get have had everything given to them their whole lives and show up expecting the same.  It is a rude friggen awakening.

Also,  Gradually doesnt work because  you definatly want to put a shock to their system.  Fire fights don't gradually become intense, they usually flair up and trigger a human's "flee/fight response".  You want to discourage the first one and encourage the latter.  If they can't handle a ton of stress droped on them in an instant they will crack under the pressure of modern warfare.


Couple all of this with the most basic tennants of discipline.  You NEED them to have that instant willing obeidence to all orders and commands.  There's a limited amount of ways to acheived that with the restrictrions placed on the instructor.  When the NCO says "take that objective" you don't want  your troops to question why you just want them to act.  

I simply cannot fathom making boot camp easier to accomidate the changes in America's youth.  It strikes in the face of all that have served and made it.  

Lower standards have never produced better quality in anything that I am aware of.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 06:22:18 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline BlueJ1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5826
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2006, 06:24:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger


and I am also restricted on the amount that I can beat them.

 


:lol
U.S.N.
Aviation Electrician MH-60S
OEF 08-09'

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2006, 06:28:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlueJ1
:lol


Keep in mind when I say "I beat my flight today" that is instructorspeak for "they did ALOT of pushups"

:aok

Offline Hornet33

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2006, 06:30:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RAIDER14
Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore


While this may be true to a very small extent, untill someone has experianced 48 to 72 hours or even 96 hours with little to no sleep in a high tempo high stress operation, the lack of toughness in todays military can become a liability.

With todays recruits "learning" at boot camp that the cell phone is there for them to call mommy or their sweetheart if it gets to rough, and "learning" that the senior people in charge won't yell at them if they make a mistake IMHO is a huge mistake. The boot camps are conditioning these young people to a reality that is false in the world of real time operations. They expect to have orders explained to them instead of just doing what they're told. They are being conditioned so that if they do make a mistake it's "OK I messed up so someone is going to pull me aside and explain it to me again...no big deal" and that kind of conditioning will get people killed.

I think people have started to forget that boot camp isn't summer camp. It's not supposed to be fun or gentle. It's supposed to turn soft individual civilians into hard teamworking soldiers.

I speak from personal experiance that for the Coast Guard, the last few years the quality of recruits coming out of boot camp has fallen way off. Recruits now carry a "training time out" card in their pocket. If it gets to "tough" for them they can whip that card out and go have some time alone to recover. So what happens when they get to an operational unit? As soon as things get tough they want to quit and go sit in a time out. Well the real world doesn't allow that. They complain which pisses of the senior people so we yell at them to get off their sorry #$%'s and do their jobs, and we end up with dicipline problems.

Military conditioning starts day one of boot camp and it should be tough enough to make these kids wake up and realize that what they are doing is not a game. It's not a job. It's a way of life. Break them down and then build them back up as soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who will stick with the mission until it's completed no matter how hard it gets.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline BlueJ1

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5826
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2006, 06:30:52 PM »
I know. It just sounded funny. I think the Marines call it "smoking".
U.S.N.
Aviation Electrician MH-60S
OEF 08-09'

Offline AquaShrimp

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1706
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2006, 06:33:52 PM »
Quote
Lower standards have never produced better quality in anything that I am aware of.


Its kind of ironic, the only example I can think of is the AK-47 and M-16.

Offline Hornet33

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2006, 06:41:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Its kind of ironic, the only example I can think of is the AK-47 and M-16.


Please tell me your not saying the AK-47 is a better rifle than the M-16?

The M-16 is eazier to shoot, has longer range, is more acurate, and if properly maintained is just as reliable.

The only advantage the AK has over the M-16 is any idiot can use it. The M-16 needs a properly trained person to use and maintain it.

Personaly I'd rather have a trained person with an M-16 by my side than an idiot with an AK-47.
AHII Con 2006, HiTech, "This game is all about pissing off the other guy!!"

Offline Gunslinger

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10084
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2006, 06:42:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlueJ1
I know. It just sounded funny. I think the Marines call it "smoking".


Yup, or going to the "pit".  The dreaded sand pit was a rough experience.

I'm not kidding here when I say I just got rid of a kid that litteraly crumpled up and went into the fetal position just from me raising my voice at him.  I was at my desk, he was standing in my doorway getting counsled for his poor performance.  

Just from getting yelled at he broke and my voice can't physically hurt him unless it's right next to his ear.  It took 5 weeks and a bunch of paperwork to finally get him out on an admin sep for failure to adapt.

Offline DiabloTX

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9592
The Army's boot camp is now easier than the Air Force's
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2006, 06:46:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RAIDER14
Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore


Can we blame the Dallas school system on this one, too???
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo