Me109 landing characteristics

[Angus]

Originally posted by Viking
How could an opinion on a hypothetical situation be provocative? What was provocative about my posts?

And what do you mean by "clumsy"?

You know Milo (and I can see he's now on your ignore list), so you know that this:

"A German fleet carrier with assorted escorts would probably be a match for the entire British home fleet in '40-'41. The British naval air arm was hopelessly outdated and would be no match for 109T's and Ju-87's at that time. Only when the British got Martlets from America did they build an effective fleet air arm."

Will definately provoke. Being very doubtable, yet debateable, I would view this as either clumsy or a troll (provocative).

Well, we've been going in rounds though, like here, where you baffle me a bit:

"The Germans did have plenty of resources to finish the Graf Zeppelin. But after the Germans lost the Battle of Britain they correctly assessed that a German carrier wouldn't survive to open water with the RAF still intact, so they mothballed her. It was thought to be a temporary situation, but later in the war when they realized it wasn't they scuttled her in the Baltic Sea."

I guess you mean the closed waters, or the gauntlet and GIUK for this one:

"However, getting the German carrier through Skagerrak, past the British isles and into open sea would be the challenge. The RAF would have plenty of opportunity to attack and destroy such a taskforce."

This all depends where you're in time. If you want to be true to a well thought "what if" theory, you're stuck with "what if they had finished her", which brings us to some month of 1942, where the British home fleet, carriers and carrier aircraft are a full match and much more. And even in 1941 , it's about the same. Those obsolete British strike planes actually did scratch the Bismarck under horrible conditions, and sink the Italian fleet at Taranto at Night, already in 1941. So, their fleet air arm was ready for offensive tasks already in 1941, it's just the air-to-air that needs to be pondered about, - so the nuisance are those odd 10? 109's that stay airborne for not much more than an hour.

The RN had more than just the Sworfish, and as pointed out before, Hurricanes could have been easily rushed out to CV's, as well as even Spitfires in the case of an enemy CV threat, so, she WOULD have been facing very tough odds. Be it the 109's or the attackers.
1940, AFAIK is hardly something that was an option. One factor there is the engines (AFAIK 100.000 hp turbo, but they were not really reliable), - this gave some trouble to it's classes service time.
And here comes the other side,  -hehe, - I still think she would have been a formidable nuisance.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Angus
You know Milo (and I can see he's now on your ignore list), so you know that this:

"A German fleet carrier with assorted escorts would probably be a match for the entire British home fleet in '40-'41. The British naval air arm was hopelessly outdated and would be no match for 109T's and Ju-87's at that time. Only when the British got Martlets from America did they build an effective fleet air arm."

Will definately provoke. Being very doubtable, yet debateable, I would view this as either clumsy or a troll (provocative).

What's provocative about that? Why would someone take offence by debating history (or 'what if' scenarios)? People that get emotional over friendly and polite debates need to stay out of them.

And this was your response to my post:

Originally posted by Angus
Exactly

(Snip)

If I'm a troll what are you? Some kind of assistant troll perhaps?

Originally posted by Angus
Well, we've been going in rounds though, like here, where you baffle me a bit:

"The Germans did have plenty of resources to finish the Graf Zeppelin. But after the Germans lost the Battle of Britain they correctly assessed that a German carrier wouldn't survive to open water with the RAF still intact, so they mothballed her. It was thought to be a temporary situation, but later in the war when they realized it wasn't they scuttled her in the Baltic Sea."

I guess you mean the closed waters, or the gauntlet and GIUK for this one:

"However, getting the German carrier through Skagerrak, past the British isles and into open sea would be the challenge. The RAF would have plenty of opportunity to attack and destroy such a taskforce."

Those two quotes of mine describe the same situation. The RAF would be the GZ biggest threat.

Originally posted by Angus
This all depends where you're in time. If you want to be true to a well thought "what if" theory, you're stuck with "what if they had finished her", which brings us to some month of 1942, where the British home fleet, carriers and carrier aircraft are a full match and much more. And even in 1941 , it's about the same. Those obsolete British strike planes actually did scratch the Bismarck under horrible conditions, and sink the Italian fleet at Taranto at Night, already in 1941. So, their fleet air arm was ready for offensive tasks already in 1941, it's just the air-to-air that needs to be pondered about, - so the nuisance are those odd 10? 109's that stay airborne for not much more than an hour.

The RN had more than just the Sworfish, and as pointed out before, Hurricanes could have been easily rushed out to CV's, as well as even Spitfires in the case of an enemy CV threat, so, she WOULD have been facing very tough odds. Be it the 109's or the attackers.
1940, AFAIK is hardly something that was an option. One factor there is the engines (AFAIK 100.000 hp turbo, but they were not really reliable), - this gave some trouble to it's classes service time.
And here comes the other side,  -hehe, - I still think she would have been a formidable nuisance.

I've always debated a 1940-'41 scenario. In 1942 and onwards the GZ would stand little chance against the RN.

[Whisky58]

Originally posted by BugsBunny
Who cares?  It is a fighting game not a flight sim

That's a can o' worms, BugsB.  War game or Flight sim?

The two aren't mutually exclusive tho'.  Why not a flight sim quality war game?

[MiloMorai]

It was an outright no brainer myoptic tunnel visioned troll. I have no time for such utter nonsense. I see nothing serious from him.

If he wants to live in a fantasy world of '40-'41 with the GZ taking on the Home Fleet, and winning, that is his option.

All one has to do is look at the RN ship losses at Narvik from the better equiped LW and see that the puny force the GZ carried would hardly put a dent in the Home Fleet. Even during the evacuation of Dunkirk not many RN ships were lost and some were lost while at anchor loading troops.

He totally ignores that if the GZ had been completed, and made it to a Norwegian port, the British would continue on their merry way as history tells us, without any counter measures.

On sided 'what ifs' just don't cut it!!!

[Angus]

oh my, oh my.
Viking:
"I've always debated a 1940-'41 scenario. In 1942 and onwards the GZ would stand little chance against the RN."

Firstly, there is a lot to choose between 1940 (i.e. Norwegian campaign) and late 1941 (Italian fleet torpedoed, Bismarck sunk, USA enters the war through the same lesson as the Italians had etc).
The Spit IX would also have made a heck of a difference in the BoB, The P51 in bundles would also have made a lot of difference in 1941, the Americans would have changed the equation in 1939, and so on.
So, put the GZ in time where she would have belonged, as to where. Or, even somewhat out of it ...
(just me here, if it's any good)

WHEN
1940 A bad bad nuisance
1941 bad nuisance
1942 bad nusiance
1943 oh golly another one to chase
1944 locked in a Fjord if still alive.

WHERE
1940 All over the seas
1941 on the run but maybe in the Atlantic
1942 being chased over the Atlantic
1943 being chased wherever
1944 Locked up in a Fjord if still alive.


Then finally to this:
"All one has to do is look at the RN ship losses at Narvik from the better equiped LW and see that the puny force the GZ carried would hardly put a dent in the Home Fleet. Even during the evacuation of Dunkirk not many RN ships were lost and some were lost while at anchor loading troops."

The Brits indeed lost surprizingly little shipping at "Dunquerque". The RAF was however quite effective in screwing up the LW, very much more than the ground Tommy at Dunkirk ever realized. Actually the surfaced  Kriegsmarine only (AFAIK) sank one capital British ship, and that one being some 20 years older (HOOD). And Narvik, well Viking, you can tell us a lot I guess, for the source is near, but as far as I remember the Kriegsmarine lost a lot of blood there while the LW was not able to prevent that. The LW force in those engagements was a lot bigger than the one onboard GZ.

So...Hypothetically and without provocation, I still belive the GZ would have been a nuisance. Just like Graf Spee and the Bismarck.

[MiloMorai]

So...Hypothetically and without provocation, I still belive the GZ would have been a nuisance. Just like Graf Spee and the Bismarck.

Be sure Angus, for a little while.

Units from the RN quickly sent the GS and Bismarck to the seabed, and as would be the permanent dock of the GZ.

[Viking]

Angus you conveniently forgot to answer this:

Originally posted by Angus
"A German fleet carrier with assorted escorts would probably be a match for the entire British home fleet in '40-'41. The British naval air arm was hopelessly outdated and would be no match for 109T's and Ju-87's at that time. Only when the British got Martlets from America did they build an effective fleet air arm."

Will definately provoke. Being very doubtable, yet debateable, I would view this as either clumsy or a troll (provocative).

What's provocative about that? Why would someone take offence by debating history (or 'what if' scenarios)? People that get emotional over friendly and polite debates need to stay out of them.

And this was your response to my post:

Originally posted by Angus
Exactly

So Angus … ARE YOU A TROLL TOO?

[Angus]

"What's provocative about that? Why would someone take offence by debating history (or 'what if' scenarios)? People that get emotional over friendly and polite debates need to stay out of them."

Exactly. I can live with this, but you know Milo won't .....

[Charge]

Widewing, do you have a more detailed picture of the cat wire attachment system in those P47s?  Was it something all US planes had or was it something that didn't need anything other that some empty space in landing gear leg to attach?
Somekind of hook which opened rearwards perhaps?

-C+

[Viking]

Originally posted by Angus
"What's provocative about that? Why would someone take offence by debating history (or 'what if' scenarios)? People that get emotional over friendly and polite debates need to stay out of them."

Exactly. I can live with this, but you know Milo won't .....

Which is why Milo is now in the company of cav58d and Bruno.

[MiloMorai]

"A German fleet carrier with assorted escorts would probably be a match for the entire British home fleet in '40-'41. The British naval air arm was hopelessly outdated and would be no match for 109T's and Ju-87's at that time."

They could have sunk the entire British fleet.

In 1941 every British warship was as helpless against aircraft as the Bismarck was.

You come in with your goosestepping superiority of Nazi Germany and make totally outrageous statements Viking. One can't have a discussion with someone that has shown themselves to be so totally clueless. LOL and then Viking gets all in a snit thinking some people are getting emotional, which is not true, but that is typically of those of that ilk. Don't like the truth Viking, too bad.

It is nothing but an outright no brainer myoptic tunnel visioned troll from someone with a closed mind.[/B]  

How many other dumb statesments did Viking make, like : "Carrier operations would of course be limited to calm oceans, just like for all carriers of that time."  and "Do you think the 109T could outturn a Spit5?" There is more to air combat than turning. The 109T was still basically a 109E, not a 109F.

Cripes, the LW could not even sink the Warspite off Norway and he expects a few a/c from the GZ to sink the entire British Home Fleet. Someone is living in a fantasy world of faery tales

[Angus]

Ahh, life is too short for such.
Anyway,  a little teaser, or provocation will often yeald lots of information

[Viking]

Originally posted by Angus
Ahh, life is too short for such.

I take it Milo once again showed why he should be ignored?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Angus
Anyway,  a little teaser, or provocation will often yeald lots of information

Yes Angus so true BUT when one person does not and won't learn and continues on with his myoptic tunnel vision faery tale fantasy world....... it is so .

[Angus]

That set aside, was there anywhere some performance specs of the 109T around?