Author Topic: Me109 landing characteristics (Read 5456 times)

Grendel · « **Reply #45 on:** November 11, 2006, 08:25:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus

I always wondered about the German Carrier program. They seem to have been so semi-serious about it, but yet developing a fighter variant and practically building the ship.

The Kriegmarine was being built according the Z-Plan.
This was to have the Kriegsmarine equipped with four operational carriers.
But: in 1946.

When the war began, the commander of the German Navy said that now the only thing Kriegsmarine can do is to die honorably.

The war disrupted and cancelled the German carriers building. IIRC two had been laid down, with Graf Zeppelin in quite advanced stage. The planes had been developed, the catapults and all finished. There were other planes planned for carrier use, than the original three. But as things went, there was no resources to finish Graf Zeppelin, neither there was anymore any strategical or tactical use for it. The carrier versions of the 109s were put into use and they were found to be good fliers, able to fly well high and had very short takeoff/landing characterics.

Angus · « **Reply #46 on:** November 11, 2006, 09:49:47 AM »

The resources part rather boggles me.
In 1940 autumn, the Germans have about the biggest resources in the world. They sit on and milk the continent of Eourope, have a trade deal with the USSR, and the English have been eating on rations for almost a year. Surely enough to clap together one carrier?
Now Raeder was always careful, but was this a thing between Dönitz and him perhaps, and/or where did Hitler enter the equation?
Opinions?

Viking · « **Reply #47 on:** November 11, 2006, 11:08:38 AM »

The Germans did have plenty of resources to finish the Graf Zeppelin. But after the Germans lost the Battle of Britain they correctly assessed that a German carrier wouldn't survive to open water with the RAF still intact, so they mothballed her. It was thought to be a temporary situation, but later in the war when they realized it wasn't they scuttled her in the Baltic Sea.

Charge · « **Reply #48 on:** November 11, 2006, 11:32:45 AM »

The British fleet made the life difficult for Kriegsmarine, too...

-C+

Angus · « **Reply #49 on:** November 12, 2006, 02:44:26 AM »

Just read up on it.
It was close to what I thought, - a conflict between commanders that caused the project to be stopped, - Dönitz-Hitler-Göring-Raeder as players.
They finished her 95%, so I don't see how "practical" it can be not to close the last 5%. Would have made a hell of a difference for the Axis in the med or the S Atlantic - or even on the Murmansk route in summertime, but there would not have been many escorts around by the time she would have been ready.
Think of it though, A CV, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen and a few destroyers clapped together into a taskforce...

Edit: Ran across this. Interesting stuff for LW studies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_155

Grendel · « **Reply #50 on:** November 12, 2006, 05:00:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Just read up on it.
Would have made a hell of a difference for the Axis in the med or the S Atlantic - or even on the Murmansk route in summertime, but there would not have been many escorts around by the time she would have been ready.
Think of it though, A CV, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen and a few destroyers clapped together into a taskforce...

But you don't get operational carrier just by building it. Germany had no previous carriers. Training pilots, learning operational procedures, all the work required before the first operational sortie would have taken a lot of time. When the carrier would have been combat ready? Too late. The only area of operations for the CV would have been against Murmansk convoys, and those were well within range of land based air. And Allied superiority was clear even there, when the Allied had enough carriers to protect those convoys with carriers.

A single German CV would have had no chance.... The CV should have been operational in 1940, 1941 latest, so it could have supported the last attacks by German navy in the Atlantic. Its range was shorter than Bismarcks, but close enough to be useful in raids into Atlantic. The recon capability would have been very useful and the Messerschmitts would be superior against British carrier planes. But. If there was a German CV around, the Allied would know that and they would have made preparations for it during the previous years.

Angus · « **Reply #51 on:** November 12, 2006, 09:18:02 AM »

I tend to diagree. The problem would have been getting it away wither to N-Norway or the S-Atlantic
On the High seas it might have been rough, (109's on the deck rather than bipes), but bear in mind that the British used smaller carriers and even for Seafires and Hurricanes!
Would a German CV have been an asset in N-Norway or on the high seas in the South Atlantic? I bet the cost for Germany would have been more than balanced by the force the Allies would have had to put against it...

Viking · « **Reply #52 on:** November 12, 2006, 12:10:59 PM »

A German fleet carrier with assorted escorts would probably be a match for the entire British home fleet in '40-'41. The British naval air arm was hopelessly outdated and would be no match for 109T's and Ju-87's at that time. Only when the British got Martlets from America did they build an effective fleet air arm.

However, getting the German carrier through Skagerrak, past the British isles and into open sea would be the challenge. The RAF would have plenty of opportunity to attack and destroy such a taskforce.

Angus · « **Reply #53 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:12:46 PM »

Exactly

And yet, remember Scarnhorst and Gneisenau. Although scarred, they made it.
BTW, about the time the GZ "would have been" ready it's roughly that era. Tirpitz was on the final too BTW, and it got unscratched to Norway.
Regarding the Murmansk line, remember that at summertime there is NO NIGHT!
Also bear in mind that the ship was (AFAIK) sailable. The speed was some 32 kts (?), and there was....Brest, - from 1940.
If you ponder on the Med, I wonder what the Brits could have done to stop her with full crew, - an independent air cover as well as escorts, passing through at Gibraltar. Well, I guess if she had existed properly, they would have had to take quite some measures for that possibility.
My conclusion is:
95% ready ship is a waste
100% was well possible if not for politics
100% would have called for British countermeasure worth much more than those odd 5%

MiloMorai · « **Reply #54 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:22:05 PM »

German destroyers were not the best sea boats.

How much damge would 50 a/c do?

10 Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighters
20 Junkers Ju 87 dive bombers
20 Fieseler Fi 167 torpedo bombers

Viking · « **Reply #55 on:** November 12, 2006, 05:17:01 PM »

They could have sunk the entire British fleet. At that time shipboard AAA was woefully inadequate to defend capital ships; something Bismarck discovered to her demise. It was only later in the war that AAA became effective with the advent of radar-fused shells and purpose built AA cruisers and destroyers.

In 1941 every British warship was as helpless against aircraft as the Bismarck was.

Debonair · « **Reply #56 on:** November 12, 2006, 06:56:50 PM »

i dont know about tripleA being no good in 1941, but i do remember reading that RN captains didn't really like to use onboard radar early in the war, as they thought it would give away their position

MiloMorai · « **Reply #57 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:01:54 PM »

You think so Viking? Then I suggest you look at RN ship losses at Dunquerke and the during Norway campaign due to a/c.

Viking · « **Reply #58 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:10:28 PM »

I'd rather look at the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse by the IJN. The LW hadn't really trained on attacking ships at that stage. The result would be very different with trained naval aviators like the IJN and USN proved in the Pacific.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #59 on:** November 12, 2006, 07:30:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Viking
I'd rather look at the sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse by the IJN. The LW hadn't really trained on attacking ships at that stage. The result would be very different with trained naval aviators like the IJN and USN proved in the Pacific.

Big deal since there was no air cover for the PoW and Repulse. The Japanese used over twice as many bombers and torpedo a/c than the GZ had.

Even if your mighty KM aviators were up to the standards of the IJN, there was not enough a/c on the GZ to sink the entire Home Fleet as you claim. After one mission, a/c losses would be such that any further missions would have no effect.

Kindly put your hobnailed boots back in the closet.