Author Topic: JU88A4 with MG-FF/M? (Read 2137 times)

Charge · « **on:** November 07, 2006, 01:58:37 PM »

Just in case some of you do not read wishlist.

As I have claimed earlier all the JU88s delivered to Finland had a MG-FF/M delivered with them, and that it was considered a standard armament option. I just received some more information of the topic.

The cannon could be mounted in the lower part of the nose and it replaced the level bombing sight. The shells ejected into a pouch under the gun. The gun had two modes: if it was locked in place the pilot could fire it from control column and aim it through his reflector sight(dive bombing sight Stuvi5). The bombardier could release the gun and aim and fire it manually. The movemen archs where: up 5deg, sides 45deg, down 40deg. It had either a 60 round mag (type T 60-FF) or a 90 round mag (type T 90-FF).

The translation is originally in Finnish from this source: Ju 88 A-4, Flugzeug-Handbuch, Teil 12 A, Schüsswaffenanlage, (März 1943)

It would be sweet to have it as I'd like to use the plane in its second major role which was "stuka" and while being down low to shoot squirrels and wabbits with it.

But it prolly would be too time consuming to model it and the use would be scarce at best...

Consider this as FYI post.

-C+

Bruno · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2006, 11:30:02 PM »

The MGFF is AH is the weakest cannon in the game - even weaker then the Type 99 MK 1 (A6M2). I can't see how it would be any more useful then the weak forward firing MG.

I doubt you could kill a jeep or M3 with it.

Charge · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2006, 05:05:37 AM »

Well, it is M variant after all which means it shoots the Minengeschoss ammo with muzzle velocity nearly 700m/s which is only slightly less than that of 151/20. So the gun would practically be almost as effective as any 20mm in a Bf109. Tony's page rates the MG-FF/M power to 14 and single 7.9mm to 1. So I'd say there is a big difference.

-C+

EagleDNY · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2006, 08:04:09 AM »

I'd agree with your IRL comparison of the 20mm with M ammo vs the 7.92, but we'd end up with the "averaged" version of the FF here.

Still, this would be a minor change that might get more people using the JU88. I'd like to see it since I'm one of the few that actually ups JU88s from time to time. IMHO tweaks that get more players to try out some of other rides aren't a bad idea in general.

EagleDNY
$.02

Bruno · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:59:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
Well, it is M variant after all which means it shoots the Minengeschoss ammo with muzzle velocity nearly 700m/s which is only slightly less than that of 151/20. So the gun would practically be almost as effective as any 20mm in a Bf109. Tony's page rates the MG-FF/M power to 14 and single 7.9mm to 1. So I'd say there is a big difference.

-C+

Not in AH - I know very well how the M'geschoss should mean greater destructive HE power (see my post in the thread linked below). Damage values in AH are more dependent upon m/v and impact velocity (speed +range). Low velocity rounds like the MGFF in AH are very weak. There are no M'geschoss rounds in AH as such, for example, Type 99 Mk1 in AH (as tested by others) is a very similar 'gun' to the MGFF/M yet it is slightly more lethal the the MGFF in AH.

When speaking of 3cm HT wrote:

Quote

How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.

in this thread:

30mm duds

With HE rounds speed and range are more of a concern with hit probability not damage probability since all the the HE round needs to do is penetrate the thin skin.

In other games like FB the MGFF is a reasonably lethal round.

My point in my first post is that in AH MGFF are so weak that it wouldn't mean much taking the MGFF over the already modeled light MG.

fyi - both the Bf 109E-4 and Bf 110C-4/b in AH should have the MGFF/M gun and capable of carrying M'geschoss. Test their lethality compared to the Mg151/2cm and Hizooka (hispano) and its clear there's no M'geschoss modeled.

Knegel · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2006, 12:29:40 PM »

Hi,

the main advantage in AH would be: WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DEACK A BASE WITH A Ju88-A!

Imho thats a significant different, iam all for it!

Greetings,

Knegel

Viking · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2006, 01:20:21 PM »

Bruno, I think you're exaggerating a bit (more than a bit in fact). According to scJazz who did some testing on guns in AH he came up with these results:

20mm Hispano Mk II   4.03
20mm MG 151/20      3.55
20mm MG-FF      3.25

So you see that that the MG-FF is more than 75% as effective as the Hizooka. I don't think that's unreasonable at all and I think the MG-FF is quite effective at close range. At least far more effective than the two MG-17's on the Emil.

Bruno · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2006, 05:55:14 PM »

Jazz shot at ground targets in his tests.

HT has said:

Quote

Btw: Destructive power on buildings and airplanes, will not give you the same values in AH.

HiTech

If you bothered to read a few threads down I posted the above.

We are not talking about damage values verses ground targets / structures.

Viking · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2006, 11:12:10 AM »

Sure, and I did read your post, but unless Hitech or someone else says differently I believe that the relative power of the guns are similar.

Bruno · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2006, 12:22:43 PM »

What 'you believe' has nothing to do with the discussion..

I quoted HT above, twice... damage values as they relate to aircraft:

Quote

How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.

By range and speed he means the range of the target and the impact velocity of the round. Damage values will vary with range. As I stated with a HE round m/v and impact velocity are secondary to the damage caused be the HE itself.

That is completely different as to how damage values verse objects (ground targets) are calculated, just as HT said:

Quote

Btw: Destructive power on buildings and airplanes, will not give you the same values in AH.

HiTech

Unless you have something relevant to post on the above there' no need to continue. The MGFF is the weakest cannon in the game.

Viking must be GScholz...

Viking · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2006, 12:21:10 PM »

Don't be such an bellybutton Bruno. I will comment on whatever I like and you'd just have to accept that or put me on ignore. I don't care either way because you seem like just a bitter luftwhiner to me, and I sincerely doubt you bring anything positive to this bbs.

Yes the MG-FF is the weakest cannon in the game and it should be, but I think it is still 75% as effective as the Hispano in dealing damage at close range.

Bruno · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2006, 01:46:59 PM »

blah blah blah.. I brought facts, you brought 'I believe...'.

You claimed I exaggerated by saying the MGFF was the weakest cannon in the game now you admit it.

The British tested the MGFF M'geschoss and found it 'about equal to the Hispano' not 75% less lethal. Get Tony William's book (or search fro post by Hohun on this forum). There's nothing real about how HTC models ammo or belting in AH. Damage is primarily a function of range/speed as HT said.

Your '75% BS' (now you add 'at close range' ) is only relevant to how the MGFF and Hispano compare against ground structures and has nothing to with air-to-air.

As for not adding anything to this BBS all anyone has to do is look at your posts here and see how worthless both you and your contributions are.

Right GScholz..?

Krusty · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2006, 02:44:44 PM »

The mgeschoss might have been right about the lethality of the hispano, but it was only every 5th round on the belt, if I recall. HTC averages the power of all rounds so that every round has the same power. They average the entire belt, basically. While the mgeschoss was on par with hispanos, the standard HE rounds were weaker.

For the way AH has it modeled, it's not so much weaker that I can't get kills. The problem is ballistics for me, not lethality (actually landing hits). If I can land hits, enemy planes go doen.

Viking · « **Reply #13 on:** November 12, 2006, 03:48:12 PM »

Seems I was right Bruno, you are just a bitter luftwhiner. Say hello to cav58d for me.

Bruno · « **Reply #14 on:** November 12, 2006, 04:34:17 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
The mgeschoss might have been right about the lethality of the hispano, but it was only every 5th round on the belt, if I recall. HTC averages the power of all rounds so that every round has the same power. They average the entire belt, basically. While the mgeschoss was on par with hispanos, the standard HE rounds were weaker.

For the way AH has it modeled, it's not so much weaker that I can't get kills. The problem is ballistics for me, not lethality (actually landing hits). If I can land hits, enemy planes go doen.

There's no M'geshoss modeled in AH. Damage is a product of range/speed. HTC may average the m/v / impact velocity for various of rounds types (these don't differ in the extreme) for a particular weapon.

The hispano is as lethal as it is due to its higher velocities. You can hit easier with due to its flatter trajectory. The MGFF is weak due to its slower velocites. Its harder to hit with for the very same reason.

Anything else you read into it is meaningless.

LW ammo belts varied with the unit /pilot and to claim every 5 or every three is just speculation. There's is no M'geschoss in AH.

wiking,

blah, blah, blah...