Author Topic: High Alt Fights  (Read 1336 times)

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
High Alt Fights
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 12:44:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GunnerCAF
From an engineering perspective, Benny is right :)  Energy is a factor of speed and alt only.  What is important is the relative energy between two fighters at high altitude.  Outside of that, what Humble right on.  The indicated speeds are much lower, so you have less energy to play with to keep an energy advantage.  Energy management is more critical at high altitude.

Gunner


But from an engineering perspective isnt lift the variable in question. Basically its what powers flight. Raw speed is just a component of lift, which is the true controlling variable. The physics of high alt flight limit total lift and therefor max AOA as well as control surface forces. In effect an airplane at high alt has less total lift to utilize so its "net energy" is less....

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
High Alt Fights
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 04:45:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
But from an engineering perspective isnt lift the variable in question.


Not when you are talking about energy.

Quote
Basically its what powers flight.


Lift doesn't power flight, the engine does.

Quote
Raw speed is just a component of lift, which is the true controlling variable.


It's the other way around.

Quote
The physics of high alt flight limit total lift and therefor max AOA as well as control surface forces. In effect an airplane at high alt has less total lift to utilize so its "net energy" is less....


You can't say that the net energy is less because there is less lift, although it might happen to be true, that isn't the way to think about it. I'm going to explain how to think about energy and maneuverability in a post below this one, it should help to clarify the concept.

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
High Alt Fights
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2006, 05:40:16 PM »
Here is my very basic explanation of energy maneuverability. The idea is important though, so it is worth getting a firm grasp of it.
 
Energy is a concept used to describe the condition of objects. It can sometimes make life very much easier to describe and understand why things happen if we refer to energy instead of the things that cause it to have the energy in the first place. Energy is a very broad notion, we say that an object has energy for various reasons, because it is moving, because it is high, or because it is hot or will burn well. Those are very different types of energy, and so they can to be broken down and named, you are probably already familiar with several types. It can sound very technical to refer to something like thermal or electromagnetic energy, if you are not technically minded, those descriptions can be daunting. The important thing to remember is that they are just labels, nothing more than names. So when a pilot talks about energy, he is talking about two things, Kinetic and Potential energy. Kinetic energy is the name given to the energy possessed by an object in motion. An aircraft that has some speed is said to posses some Kinetic energy. It’s as simple as that! The faster the aircraft travels, the more energy it is said to possess. Potential energy is the name used to describe stored energy. One way of storing energy is to raise an object above the ground. When the object is lifted, energy is required to raise it. When the object falls, it gains speed and the energy is recovered. while it was in its high position it had the potential to fall, it had potential energy. Similarly an aircraft that has altitude is said to possess potential energy. The higher the aircraft is, the more energy it is said to possess, because it will be able to gain more speed when it falls. At this point you may be thinking that things have hardly become any simpler. Initially we had speed and altitude, and now we have simply replaced them with two types of energy. However thinking in terms of energy allows us to perform a trick that does simplify things a great deal.

Normally If you want to add quantities together it is important to ensure that they have the same units. However two apples plus two oranges makes sense, only if you consider using a new system of units called fruits, when the answer can then be four fruits. In the same way, adding speed and altitude together is fine, providing you think in terms of the energy. That this is a reasonable thing to do can easily be demonstrated. For example, if you hold an apple 6ft above the ground it will have potential energy because of its altitude, but it will have no kinetic energy because it is stationary. However when you drop it, it will lose altitude and gain speed. As it falls lower, it will become faster as it converts potential energy to kinetic energy on the way. The moment before it reaches the ground, all of the potential energy will have been converted to kinetic energy. However the amount of energy that existed in the beginning as potential energy will be the same as the amount remaining at the end in the form of kinetic energy or speed. Originally it was high, and then became faster as it fell, however the total energy was always the same. If you consider the energy when the object is half way down, it will have gained some kinetic energy and lost some potential energy, and you can now add the kinetic energy due to the speed, to the potential energy due to the height and obtain a figure that represents the combination of speed and altitude. What we have done is added the speed and altitude together in terms of the amount of energy in each. What we have done is forged a link between speed and altitude using a tool called energy. We have discovered that two seemingly separate quantities, are infact intimately related. The ways in which this relationship is so vital in air combat can now be considered.

So for a fighter pilot, the concept of kinetic and potential energy, allow him to describe the combined effect of speed and altitude together. When you fly your aircraft the overall energy status is the sum of its kinetic and potential energy and that will depend upon its speed and altitude. Just like the apple in the example, an aircraft can trade altitude for speed by diving. The higher it is, the more potential energy it can convert to kinetic energy and the more speed it can gain. If the pilot climbs he will lose speed but gain altitude, which can be converted back to speed by diving once again.

The way in which speed and altitude are converted back and forth in this way is called “Energy Management”. The combination of an aircraft’s speed and altitude is referred to as its “Energy Status”. It is possible for two aircraft to have the same energy status even though their speed and altitude may be different.

For example, an aircraft at 6000ft and 350mph has exactly the same total energy as another at 8000ft and 250mph, they are at different altitudes and speeds but their total energy status is the same. They are said to be Co E. Being Co E means that in this example if we ignore drag for a moment, if the low fighter climbed to 8000ft his speed would bleed to 250mph and if the high fighter dived to 6000ft his speed would increase to 350mph. That means that they have the same amount of total energy.

Now you will begin to see the advantage of talking in terms of energy instead of speed and altitude. In this example, comparing two aircraft would require both the speed and altitude for each aircraft, that is four quantities, and it would in any case be difficult to interpret. However by combing those quantities and thinking in terms of the energy, it was easy to see that the two aircraft were infact identical in that respect.

So, we have arrived at a way of describing speed and altitude in terms of a new quantity called energy. That allows us to combine the speed and altitude together into a single quantity that expresses the sum of both, quite a neat trick. But what does that energy tell us about the manoeuvrability of an aircraft? Well total energy is not yet the end of the story because two aircraft at the same altitude and speed won’t necessarily have the same total energy, because that depends on their weight. That this is true can be seen if you consider the amount of work you would need to do to stop two objects moving at the same altitude and speed, but one much heavier than the other. You will appreciate that the heavier object would be much more difficult to stop, it would require more energy. So for example a 150 ton B-2 at 20,000ft and 400kts would have a great deal more energy than a 12 ton F-16 at the same altitude and speed, but the B-2 would be a good deal less manoeuvrable.

So the heavier aircraft in this example has more energy, yet is less manoeuvrable. The reason for this is that if you apply the same aerodynamic force to two aircraft, the heavy one will accelerate less than the light one. We need to take another important step. Instead of considering the total energy, we need to look at the specific energy for an aircraft. That is just the aircraft’s total energy divided by its weight. That provides a measure of the energy per pound and is much more useful because it removes the effect of weight or inertia that caused the problem with the B-2 and F-16 comparison. The B-2 had a much lower specific energy, that’s why it was less manoeuvrable. The F-16 had a high specific energy because it was much lighter, that explains its greater manoeuvrability. Specific energy is called Es (pronounced “Ease”) by fighter pilots who can refer to charts for comparison.

So in terms of being able to climb to a greater altitude, or to the same altitude at a higher speed, more Es can already be seen to endow a fighter with more manoeuvrability. You might say that an aircraft with more Es has more options for converting between its potential and kinetic energy. It will be able to trade airspeed to altitude more readily, you might say that it was more energy manoeuvrable. The concept of energy manoeuvrability is an important one that can be applied at all altitudes. For similar aircraft an Es advantage would also translate to manoeuvrability in the sense of turning ability and that can be explained by taking the next step and combining the idea of energy manoeuvrability and angular manoeuvrability… But that’s another story.

Hope that helps...

Badboy
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 05:42:21 PM by Badboy »
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline GunnerCAF

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 946
      • Gunner's Grange
High Alt Fights
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 06:49:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
But from an engineering perspective isnt lift the variable in question. Basically its what powers flight. Raw speed is just a component of lift, which is the true controlling variable. The physics of high alt flight limit total lift and therefor max AOA as well as control surface forces. In effect an airplane at high alt has less total lift to utilize so its "net energy" is less....


To be brief, The total energy is the sum of the potential energy (from altitude) and kenetic energy (from speed).  At 30K, you have lots of potential energy.  So the 30K plane has about as much total energy a WW2 prop aircraft can have.  I know this isn't as technical as Badboy's explanation, but... I am an Engineer :)

Not to stray to far from Troon's post, he was escorting bombers.  Hard turns that bleed off energy and altitude is not a good option if he wanted to protect the buffs.  To maintain this altitude, you need to conserve as much energy as possible.  The fighter that can burn less energy then the other will keep a relative energy advantage.  Energy fighting isn't about having the most energy, it's about burning less energy then your enemy.

What you are saying is right.  At 30K, you options for turning around become limited.  Since the air is thin, there is not much lift.  Pointing the lift vector any direction but up and you will drop like a rock.  A high AOA will put you at the edge of a stall.  I know you know what you are talking about.  I would prefer you to be on my side anyday in a fight :)

Gunner
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 06:58:47 PM by GunnerCAF »
Gunner
Cactus Air Force

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
High Alt Fights
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 08:41:45 PM »
I'm approaching from the perspective of air combat. At 30k the flight envelope is restricted by the limited lift the wing can generate. Yes you can trade alt for E so the total energy is at its highest. However the available E for utilization is lower in any plane as altitude increases. Obviously as a non engineer I'm not properly articulating the variables....but from a practical perspective the pilot has fewer options since he has less available lift. This is the true force we are discussing (IMO) whenever we talk about "E fighting"

Badboy I want comparing energy state between planes....simply stating that at high alt all planes suffer from a significant degradation of the flight enevope. I certainly am not going to try and argue the engineering aspects with either of you....I agree completely with what your both saying.

What I was trying to due in "laymans" terms was explain to troon the practical impact he experienced. You simply cant fly your plane at 30k like you can at 15k. When you tell someone they have "more E" I feel they view that in terms or more potential options. Yet all 3 of us know that one hard yank on the stick at 30k may send your pony spinning out of control....and with less lift and control surface authority recovery is tougher. I've seen many  pony actually pop the wings since speeds are so high....once the control surfaces "bite" the airframe is immediatly overstressed due to the high control inputs (very similiar to real life with recreational pilots).....

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Booz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Re: High Alt Fights
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 10:40:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by troon

Are all the super good players all up there at high alts?


yes

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1226
Re: Re: High Alt Fights
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2006, 03:09:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Booz
yes

And even if not, they are always on their way there :)

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline Schatzi

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5729
      • http://www.slowcat.de
High Alt Fights
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2006, 04:33:52 AM »
Im always below 15 K..... :confused:
21 is only half the truth.

Offline Kuhn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
      • Canvasman
High Alt Fights
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2006, 09:07:32 AM »
The only time I'm at 30,000 is when I'm following some one else there. The high alt fight can be tough if you dont keep you indicated speed up. For good practice go up with a buddy and try to get on each others six. :D
325th Checkertails

Offline Schutt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
High Alt Fights
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2006, 10:59:09 AM »
Keep the speed up, avoid stalls & think wider.

Also your description doesnt sound like the usual MA engagement, so i guess the other guys were coming from way above you, teaming up and maybe Finns. All of that is not a good sign.

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
High Alt Fights
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2006, 11:47:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
So the heavier aircraft in this example has more energy, yet is less manoeuvrable. The reason for this is that if you apply the same aerodynamic force to two aircraft, the heavy one will accelerate less than the light one. We need to take another important step. Instead of considering the total energy, we need to look at the specific energy for an aircraft. That is just the aircraft’s total energy divided by its weight. That provides a measure of the energy per pound and is much more useful because it removes the effect of weight or inertia that caused the problem with the B-2 and F-16 comparison. The B-2 had a much lower specific energy, that’s why it was less manoeuvrable. The F-16 had a high specific energy because it was much lighter, that explains its greater manoeuvrability. Specific energy is called Es (pronounced “Ease”) by fighter pilots who can refer to charts for comparison.
Badboy


While you touched on it here you failed to mention that, in this situation aerodynamics play a significant role in manouverability.  A plane with a bigger wing will likely have more lift and thus more manuoverability than the same plane with a smaller wing.  There's much more to this than simple e-states although you did a great job explaining E.  As an example, I went to intercept somone in a 163 the other night.  It turned out it was a P51 and he was at 40K.  As I hit ~37-38K my 163 started to shudder and at 39K I lost control of it and was plummeting toward the deck.  This happened even though I was GAINING on the P51 all the way up until I lost control.  I had an e-advantage all the way but, I had an aerodynamic disadvantage.  BTW, I immediately cut throttle and finally re-gained control of my 163 at ~10K.  It was a nervous ride down.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
High Alt Fights
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2006, 12:32:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
But at 30k the P-51/P-38/F4U-4 all out perform the P-47N


A typical P-47N with 50% or less internal fuel is untouchable at 30k... It can engage and disengage at will due to its massive speed and excellent climb.

476 mph (25% fuel, 474 mph with 50%)... Best rate of climb at 30k too (2,450 fpm).

P-38s don't fare real well at 30k, because pushing the nose over even a little bit results in buffeting. At 30k, everything but the Jugs and Ta 152H are on the back side of their performance curves.

Inasmuch as the P-47N can pull 72" of MAP at 30k, it has its full 2,800 hp available. Its acceleration is simply the fastest of all at 30,000 feet.

I've played with some buddies in P-51s at 30k and the P-47N simply dominates the Mustang up that high.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
High Alt Fights
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 02:07:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
Badboy I wasnt comparing energy state between planes....simply stating that at high alt all planes suffer from a significant degradation of the flight enevope....

What I was trying to due in "laymans" terms was explain to troon the practical impact he experienced. You simply cant fly your plane at 30k like you can at 15k. When you tell someone they have "more E" I feel they view that in terms or more potential options.

Rather than put it that way, I suggest the "laymen" need to understand a few things:

E state, is an observation of your total kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude) relative to other planes around you.  As a practical matter, the plane with the most E, is the one that can zoom to the highest altitude at any given moment.

Indicated Air Speed (IAS) is the only speed that matters when considering if you are fast enough to do a maneuver.  If your IAS says 150 MPH at 30K, then you effectively can not maneuver any better than if you were going 150 MPH at sea level.  Your current IAS (kinetic) determines your available maneuvering options.  You can change altitude (potential) to quickly adjust your IAS.

Quote
....simply stating that at high alt all planes suffer from a significant degradation of the flight enevope....

So again...E is a relative comparison between two or more planes.  It's not "What maneuvers do I have available at this very instant" (that is determined by your IAS which is only one component of your E state).  All planes have reduced maneuverability at high alt so the other planes have the same relative problems as you.  It is instead "Will my Energy allow me to maneuver higher than the other guy is able?  Or vice versa."

Offline GunnerCAF

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 946
      • Gunner's Grange
High Alt Fights
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2006, 03:40:39 PM »
Great discussion all.  So, I am at 30K escorting B17 bombers in my P51.  I am about 5K above the bombers.  Several enemy aircraft are closing at co-altitude, or slightly lower at the bombers rear.  What is the best way to defend the bombers?  

Gunner
Gunner
Cactus Air Force

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
High Alt Fights
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2006, 03:48:19 PM »
As long as you have alt on them turn to get behind or at least over them and dive onto their six but don't let them drag you down.  You were correct in that the best way to defend a bomber is from above him.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.