Author Topic: High Alt Fights (Read 1390 times)

troon · « **on:** November 22, 2006, 12:09:59 AM »

Recently, I partcipated in a bomber strike mission. I was in the p51 crusing at 30k. This was the first time being that high in the main arena. Fighters then attacked our bomber group. Within 30 seconds of my first shot, my engine was shot out and i was drifting down to earth.

So two questions,

Is there any adjustments you need to make for fights that high?

Are all the super good players all up there at high alts?

humble · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2006, 12:50:19 AM »

at that altitude you have much less E to play with. Your plane shows two "speeds"....the white needle shows "indicated air speed" and the red marker shows "true air speed"....

Now at 30k your pony may be moving at 400+ MPH....but your white needle will show an airspeed of just over 200....this is important since it reflects the actual movement of air over your wing by density....in effect your wing is generating only "200something" mph worth of lift. The plane is much more sluggish and will stall once that white needle hits stall speed....even though you might be going 300+mph....

Fighting at high alt is a totally different experience that takes time to learn....

Roscoroo · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2006, 03:00:36 AM »

as Humble Said "Fighting at high alt is a totally different experience that takes time to learn...."

theres only a few planes that work good at the 30+k alt and even those take time to learn ... up there its best to fight in the horizontal ,extend alot , and keep your E up as much as possiable ... its alot slower type fight and you wont be reversing at 1k but extending to 2.5 or more at times .

Hawco · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2006, 05:03:11 PM »

The trick I've found at hi alt is to pull as many low G manouvers as possible, learn the minimum speed for roll for your particular aircraft. Learn to watch your G meter when doing anything up high.

Benny Moore · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2006, 05:46:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
at that altitude you have much less E to play with

Actually, at high altitude you have a lot more energy to work with, it's just harder to work with it because maneuvering is harder. This is due to the effect which you have explained. Generally speaking, energy fighters are better than maneuverable aircraft up high, because it's harder to maneuver and energy fighting is more effective.

The "Big Three" Unites States Army Air Force fighters are allegedly better up high, although in real life it was only the P-51 that was specifically designed for high altitude fighting. The P-38 was best at low altitude.

humble · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2006, 06:07:46 PM »

Benny your actually wrong here. From an engineering perspective "energy" is really the combination of the various force vectors. The lift vector decreases significantly while the planes speed increases marginally so "total force" is significantly less at 3ok then 20k....this is readily apparent by looking at any lanes "doghouse chart"....some planes handle it better then others....but no plane has its optimal performance at that alt.

The F4U-4 has better climb and speed (mil) at 30k then the P51...the 38 outclimbs the pony at mil power as well....

Zazen13 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2006, 06:50:13 PM »

Fighting up high is all about E fighting. Because of the much more narrow flight envelope it is much easier to make a tiny mistake that costs you alot of E. Unlike down low it is very hard to recover lost E. Once someone gets "On top of you" E-state wise, you are usually in serious trouble.

Because of the greater restrictions on manueverability up high snap shots and crossing shots are probably as good as you are going to get, so marksmanship and gun lethality plays a bigger role, you are not often going to get the opportunity to manuever 'into the saddle' in a high alt fight.

Zazen

troon · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:22:08 PM »

so in aces high, what is the best high alt fighter?

1epic1 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:51:28 PM »

the P-47 is the best 25K+ fighter in AH and in RL...if you dont believe me go look at the charts...at around 23 24K the p47 will rulle over the 51 and 38...

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2006, 01:01:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 1epic1
the P-47 is the best 25K+ fighter in AH and in RL...if you dont believe me go look at the charts...at around 23 24K the p47 will rulle over the 51 and 38...

But at 30k the P-51/P-38/F4U-4 all out perform the P-47N

bozon · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2006, 03:21:07 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
But at 30k the P-51/P-38/F4U-4 all out perform the P-47N

AH charts are for 100% fuel load if I'm not mistaken. You know what it means for the 550 gallons P47N...

Schatzi · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2006, 04:31:48 AM »

Dont forget the SMk14 at high alts.....

humble · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2006, 10:11:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Schatzi
Dont forget the SMk14 at high alts.....

WOW....

I had no idea the spitXIV was a monster up there (then again I dont go up there).....looking at the gonzo charts it dominates (47N a bit faster with wep) the 38/51/47 at 30k......no wonder its a perked bird:)

GunnerCAF · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2006, 11:38:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
Benny your actually wrong here. From an engineering perspective "energy" is really the combination of the various force vectors. The lift vector decreases significantly while the planes speed increases marginally so "total force" is significantly less at 3ok then 20k....this is readily apparent by looking at any lanes "doghouse chart"....some planes handle it better then others....but no plane has its optimal performance at that alt.

From an engineering perspective, Benny is right

Energy is a factor of speed and alt only. What is important is the relative energy between two fighters at high altitude. Outside of that, what Humble right on. The indicated speeds are much lower, so you have less energy to play with to keep an energy advantage. Energy management is more critical at high altitude.

Gunner

Roscoroo · « **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:09:17 PM »

the 47n was a top dog at 36k but after it lost "super cruise" it fell outta use . it still has "Secrets" though and will perform with the rest up there if setup correctly. the 2x's fuel burn just doesnt do it justice. when you can trim a 152 to cruise for hours up there.