109s AGAIN

[wrag]

Originally posted by Krusty
OMG! Proof that the 109 is porked! See, IK3 posted it right there! It's even on the side of the plane!!!

FYI: Porked is a civilized way of saying f***ed. People can't go around swearing all the time, especially on BBS forums. "Porked" is a relatively recent word with no roots [EDIT: to pork something might literally mean to prepare it in the way one prepares pork meat, or to add pork meat to it, neither of which is remotely related to the common game-related use here] , other than it sounds like the F word, and sometimes folks use "porking" as a synonym with f***ing.

So by saying "it's porked" you're saying "it's f***ed", which means (naturally) it's broken.

Don't go all semantic on us, now. Porked means messed up, broken, "something's wrong", etc and so forth.

IIRC Porked comes from the famous, or perhaps infamous, PORK BARREL projects put out by our guvmint.   In that what you get is what they said you would get, sorta, but it's NOT quite what was expected.  Something doesn't seem quite right.  The results are not what many believed it would or should be.  One is left trying to figure out if one actually got what they THOUGHT they were paying for, yet there is LITTLE that can be done about it.  So the saying it's porked does not always mean it's BROKEN.  Or at least it didn't until many started making it mean that.

Words are interesting things, in that they actually are intended to have a meaning.  They were intended to express ideas, to comunicate, etc...

Sadly many come to that and say there "just words".

BTW IIRC Semantic refers to the manner the word is pronounced, and it's place within the structure of a sentence.  Both of which can change the meaning of the word to such a degree it can come across as meaning the opposite of it's intended, or original use.  I'm sure we all have run into such statements.  Good morning pronounced different ways can mean sooo much.  Knew a gal that was a MASTER, or should I say MISTRESS, of such.   She could cut you to shreads with the most innocent sounding words.  Words that were usually used in greeting she could take and make into an I hate you, and wish you were dead, frase.

So when I say porked I am using the meaning I understand, and NOT the meaing you have put forth.

I've come to believe if anyone wants to communicate on a BBS they better get their word definitions worked out frist.

Tried that a few times but keep getting the there "just words" BS.

The Declaration of Independence are just words I guess.  The Preamble to the Bill of Rights are just words I guess.  Or at least to some that is probably true.  To me they have meaning.  Very important meaning.  (geeez can't even spell this morning, better get myself some coffee)

BTW anyone come up with the original meaning of the word punk?  Want some help with it?  IIRC it originated within the prison system.  It's meaning has changed considerably.  I supposed through over use, or misuse?  Or a really fast talking individual worked very hard and with great fear after having used it on the wrong person.  A person that actually knew what it meant.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by wrag
So when I say porked I am using the meaning I understand, and NOT the meaing you have put forth.

And you are using the wrong meaning for the word. I don't care if you dated somebody once that could twist any word into an insult. That's beside the point. Hell, even I can do that, friend. See? I just did it. That's nothing new.

When something is porked, nerfed, f**ked, broken, most people know what you mean. You can't say "this is f**ked, but by that I mean it's perfectly fine". Nor can you say the same about "porked". There are meanings in place already for these words and you cannot redefine them on your own.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Krusty
Bruno, I'm curious...

If the G10 and the K4 came out at about the same time, what hole would it fill?

It wouldn't fill the timeline hole between the G14 and the K4, because by the time the G10 shows up the K4 is already out (and we already have that). It might fill a performance gap, but the performance isn't that different. 20mph is nice, yes, but given what we have I "could live with" what we've got.

The LW were looking for a way to increase 109 performance. In March '44 they introduced the the G-/AS (DB605A with DB603 supercharger). The larger supercharger gave better high altitude performance. For lower alitutdes MW-50 provided the added boost thus the G-14 and G-14/AS.

The K-4 was to be fitted with the DB605D - an improvement over the DB605A. The K-4 airframe was and required new tooling to ramp up production. As Butch pointed out to you in a previous thread the K-4 and G-6 didn't habve the same airframe. While K-4 production was brought up to speed they hoped to get the DB605D into the G-10 and in service while the work for the K-4 was underway. The DB605D had more power then the DB605A plus MW-50 and the DB603 supercharger. There were problems with the DB605D that delayed its introduction. Once it was ready K-4 production was underway thus the G-10 and K-4 entered service in October '44 with the same engine but slightly different airframes and performance.

As I wrote above the G-14 was the evolution of G-6 with DB605A with MW-50 (DB605AM.

The G-10 was the evolution of G-6 coupled with DB605D with MW-50 and supercharger of the DB603.

The K-4 was a new version all together but power by the DB605D with MW-50 and supercharger of the DB603.

run your 109K4 at 80% throttle and fill that speed void left by the G-10.

Wow you are clever...

In the CT unless HTC builds in an option to force '80%' throttle no one would do that. Thus either the LW will have a much better performing plane early or the K-4 will only enter into that tour very late while the higher altitude performance gap between the G-14 and the allied fighters is unbalanced. From June till October the LW in the west had better high altitude performing aircraft for RVT duty the the early G-6 and G-14 as modeled in AH. These were the G-6/AS and G-14/AS - with similar performance (at altitude - below FTH these would be slower) to 'real life' G-10 numbers.

[Ball]

Originally posted by Bruno

Wow you are clever...

thanks

you are smart too, maybe we can be friends and play scrabble together?

[Krusty]

Okay, I get that part, Bruno. But the G10 and the K4 ended up entering service at the same time, so it wouldn't fill the gap in the upcoming CT. To fill the gap it would have to come out well before the G10 or K4, and perform better than the G14. So the G10 wouldn't be an ideal gap filler at all.

Maybe the thought holds for another variant, but doesn't seem to add up for the G10 in my head

[wetrat]

Originally posted by Pawz
Seriously perk the k4 killnU is a monster in it. Who needs to run anyway?

KU is my *****

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Krusty
Okay, I get that part, Bruno. But the G10 and the K4 ended up entering service at the same time, so it wouldn't fill the gap in the upcoming CT. To fill the gap it would have to come out well before the G10 or K4, and perform better than the G14. So the G10 wouldn't be an ideal gap filler at all.

Maybe the thought holds for another variant, but doesn't seem to add up for the G10 in my head

Yes it would - since we don't have a G-6/AS and G-14/AS the G-10 could fill that gap (substitute for...) since all three have similar performance at altitude - 420-428 mph.

Above 16400 the G-14 is almost exactly like the old the G-6 late we had in AH. That means the speed difference between the G-10 (G-6/AS - G-14/AS) at say 22k feet is upwards of 30 mph...

The G-14 is my favorite plane in AH or in any other that has it. Next to the G-6 the G-14 was the second most produced Bf 109. Its a great plane. However, in an event, scenario, or CT tour designed around bomber interception and higher altitude combat its performance above 164000 is very lacking.

Since the first CT will be 8th AF verses LW then the G-14 wil most likely be the standard mid-range 109 (G-6 for the opening and the K-4 near the end of the tour). IMHO it would have been better if the G-10 was kept and its performance adjusted to reflect 420-428 mph. It could have substituted for the G-14/AS and made a much more competitive mid-range 109 - between the G-6 or G-14 and the K-4.

[Krusty]

Well now that they're taking more care with the variants they add, I don't think that adding a G10 and having it sub as a G14/AS or G6/AS would be appropriate. We ran into problems with the "K4" model of the G10 we used to have. We don't want to substitute.

It might be more prudent to lobby for the G14/AS, rather than the G10. This, also, showed up before the G10, unless I'm mistaken, and if they were putting it into the timeline of a Combat Tour, they wouldn't have to fudge dates or substitute variants like they'd have to do with the G10.

CT is going to be under scrutiny, and if folks come in saying "Why do you introduce a G10 way way before it ever flew?" and the answer is "to sub for the G14AS" then that begs the question "Well... why didn't you just add the G14AS to begin with?". That sort of thing.

[Bruno]

Originally posted by Krusty
Well now that they're taking more care with the variants they add, I don't think that adding a G10 and having it sub as a G14/AS or G6/AS would be appropriate. We ran into problems with the "K4" model of the G10 we used to have. We don't want to substitute.

It might be more prudent to lobby for the G14/AS, rather than the G10. This, also, showed up before the G10, unless I'm mistaken, and if they were putting it into the timeline of a Combat Tour, they wouldn't have to fudge dates or substitute variants like they'd have to do with the G10.

CT is going to be under scrutiny, and if folks come in saying "Why do you introduce a G10 way way before it ever flew?" and the answer is "to sub for the G14AS" then that begs the question "Well... why didn't you just add the G14AS to begin with?". That sort of thing.

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a G-14 and G-10 in performance. They could have used the same model as the K-4 for the G-10 and just did FM tweak. Adding a G-14/AS would mean doing a new model and FM.

Besides look at the allied plane set. There will be many 'substitutions' to get it to work. I bet they even shove the P-47N in there.  

There's a much greater difference in the P-47D-11 and early (pre-upgraded) P-47C then the G-10 and G-14/AS.

Then there's no A-4, no A-6 or A-7 etc...

The G-10 could have easily be used in place of a G-14.

[killnu]

KU is my *****

where you been man?  been awhile....hope to see you up sometime.

[TW9]

Originally posted by Ball
thanks

you are smart too, maybe we can be friends and play scrabble together?

   

[wrag]

Originally posted by Krusty
And you are using the wrong meaning for the word. I don't care if you dated somebody once that could twist any word into an insult. That's beside the point. Hell, even I can do that, friend. See? I just did it. That's nothing new.

When something is porked, nerfed, f**ked, broken, most people know what you mean. You can't say "this is f**ked, but by that I mean it's perfectly fine". Nor can you say the same about "porked". There are meanings in place already for these words and you cannot redefine them on your own.

And I am of the opinion that it is YOU that are using the word wrong.

Perhaps the meaning you claim to be in place/correct is the NEWER meaning?

I've understood the meaning of porked to be different then your meaning for a very long time now.

So I disagree with you VERY much on this Krusty.  And I'm of the opinion that the redefining has occured since I understood the meaning of the word.  So I can make my claim and if you disagree that is your right.

What is your definition of the word punk?

[Viking]

This is just retarded guys.

[Krusty]

He's done this before, as well, on these forums.

He tries to donn an air of know-it-all by redirecting meanings of current words to archaeic meanings. You know what? Pencil comes from the same root word as noodle. Doesn't mean that it MEANS noodle. Roots of a word are not the meaning of a word. They can provide insight into HOW a word's meaning evolves, but you can't just go look up meanings for words that were used in the past and hope that they mean the same now.

It doesn't work that way, I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

I'm done arguing with wrag on this matter. He's wrong and he doesn't stand in a position capable of showing me otherwise.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Krusty
OMG! Proof that the 109 is porked! See, IK3 posted it right there! It's even on the side of the plane!!!