P38J and P38G vs Spitfire mkV

[B@tfinkV]

i have been wanting to make a post to show these flms for a while and i figured alot of people are asking questions about P38s. So here is a thread dedicated to P38s of all models vs the spitfire, in these two cases its a spitfire MKv, the most deadly of all spits in a turnfight.


P38G owns spit5

P38J VS spit5

there is obviously alot to explain about how these fights end with the P38 on top, infact too much to explain.

what i thought would be better is if anyone looking to learn the P38 first watched the films, and then ask questions about how it was flown. i say this because the manouvers are well known already and i dont want to go into great detail unless someone feels they want me to.


anyhow, enjoy the films, and try watching them from a couple of other views including the cockpit/recorded hat view modes.  F5 fixed external view with trails on is a very good way to grasp the flight paths and manouvers.

i hope these are usefull to someone.


S!

bat

[1895]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
in these two cases its a spitfire MKv, the most deadly of all spits in a turnfight.
 

Hehe wrong, Seafire has more ammo and turns better

[B@tfinkV]

more ammo, but not a chance in hell of turning better.



don't make me take your cocky little butt to DA to proove it

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Krypto
Hehe wrong, Seafire has more ammo and turns better

Seafire hase more ammo but Spit 5 turns slightly better.

[humble]

I like the wing fluttering down by itself in your 6 view near the end:).....

I wont argue the the superiority of the 38 vs the spit....especially if the spit driver doesnt really understand the issues. I got owned spitIX vs 38 recently on first few but once I learned a bit more about the "do's and don'ts" I was able to turn the tides....

Here I'd say the better pilot was a much bigger factor. You should have one timed him on the initial reverse....just bad luck (or good for him) he snuck by. He then duplicated fundementally the same mistake. Some folks dont seem to learn the fundemental reality that speed kills ......

Wish I could tighten up my reverses that well....both shots were nicely set up....

***at edit***

Looking at the 38G clip

[1895]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
more ammo, but not a chance in hell of turning better.



don't make me take your cocky little butt to DA to proove it

Sure lets go, this weekend. Cause last I recall, flying the Seafire with Sonic23 it seemed to turn MUCH better. Easier to outturn 5's. Or is it just me?

[SkyChimp03]

Originally posted by Krypto
Sure lets go, this weekend. Cause last I recall, flying the Seafire with Sonic23 it seemed to turn MUCH better. Easier to outturn 5's. Or is it just me?

I belive sonic23 only flies spitt9

[Niros]

Nice films Batfink , especialy the 2nd one
I know what a spit5 can do. It's a great plane.
My opinion : the spits didn't know how to deal with the speeds (especialy low speed). I bet they didn't touch the throttle.

[Damionte]

The second film with the J was great. I've been trying to use that rudder flup reversal lately but I lose control doing it. Good to see it can actually be done. I was going to give up on doing that.

If I can get in some pings on the flip like that may be able to scare the spit into trying to dive away.

[Sweet2th]

there is obviously alot to explain about how these fights end with the P38 on top, infact too much to explain.

In the first film with the G you were fighting was piloted by a babyseal and that in itself explains a lot.

[B@tfinkV]

thats patialy true sweet2th, but i think given a few more turns he would have figured it out.

i have fought that guy before and he does have a few tricks up his sleeve.


the main factor is that they don't expect a P38 to go ultra-aggresive.


the flip you describe is very usefull damionte, and often very hard to recover from. the recovery relies on a good judgement of your angle of attack, in a game where you cannot 'feel' G-force. its essentially an elaborate and risky snap roll, forced by pulling back as much as possible and applying alot of rudder. one of the most vital parts of the recovery in AH2 is to push the stick forward at the same time as applying the reverse ailerons and rudder. pushing the stick forward, even if it doesnt look like you need to, will really help in returning to an even AoA.



I wonder if anyone also noticed at the end of the P38J fight, the aircraft is forced into a flat stall, angle of attack is showing the plane to be almost literaly falling straight down while keeping the nose high.  It's almost impossible to create that ammount of drag in the spitfire to slow down, and the inevitable overshoot occours.  its then a case of righting the AoA and restarting a rolling attitude to earn gun solutions as the spit tried to get back behind the 38.


in this situation the spits best opition would have been to flat turn away and force the 38 to either follow (with no hope of winning) or extend out and remerge from a disadvantage.


i wouldnt say either pilots of the spits were flying to thier best ablity, mainly because they were FAR too overconfident in the spit vs 38 match up.

the longer the fights go on, the more likely the 38 is to mess up, as can be seen in the lucky escape in the J that surprisingly only takes off an aileron/

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krypto
Or is it just me?

I guess it's just you. The SpitV has a measured turn radius about 60 feet smaller than the Seafire.

Indeed, all the F4Us, 109F-4, Niki and Spit9 all turn smaller circles than the Seafire.

My regards,

Widewing

[1895]

Odd, maybe hitech gave me magical powers? My seafire turns better then any spit, just alot slower excel and a little less climb then the 8.

[Nomak]

Thank you for posting the films Batty.

IMO you just out flew your opponet's.  It was you not the plane in those particular films.

In a close in Knife/Angles fight (Which is what is shown in the films) IMO the mk V will flat out chew up a P38g or a p38j .

If you would like we can go to the DA on any night and give it a try.  Lemmie know.

Dave

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krypto
Odd, maybe hitech gave me magical powers? My seafire turns better then any spit, just alot slower excel and a little less climb then the 8.

The AH2 Seafire Mk.II weighs 855 lb more than the Spitfire Mk.V when both are fully loaded. That's just about 11% more mass to drag around. Given the same wing area, it is not possible for the Seafire to match the Mk.V's turning radius.

Now, if the Seafire is carrying only 25% of fuel capacity, it weighs almost 500 lbs less than at full load. That will get it close to the Mk.V in a constant rate turn. Close, but not quite good enough.

I suspect you are making the universal assumption that because you were able to out-turn Spitfires with the Seafire, the Seafire is the better turner. What this really means is that you were the better pilot, able to get more from your plane than the other guy was.

If you want to test the two aircraft yourself, I can provide you with the detailed procedure we use to establish baseline turn performance for all AH2 aircraft.

Turn radius and Turn rate for all Spitfire types. 25% fuel, flaps deployed. From smallest to largest. The data is Mosq's data, but I have duplicated his results within 1%. Therefore, it is quite accurate, IMHO.

Spit1: 370.8 ft @ 21.2 degrees/sec
Spit5: 386.4 ft @ 21.0 degrees/sec  
Spit9: 432.9 ft @ 20.5 degrees/sec
Seafire: 443.5 ft @ 18.5 degrees/sec
Spit8: 447.9 ft @ 20.9 degrees/sec
Spit16: 450.3 ft @ 19.9 degrees/sec
Spit14: 509.3 ft @ 19.4 degrees/sec

If you prefer a practical demonstration, meet me in the TA and we'll fly some head-to-head tests, and duel if you wish. I realize we have substantially different schedules, but we do see each other there from time to time. So, if you see me, give me a yell.

My regards,

Widewing