Aerocobra!

[Bronk]

Originally posted by humble
The same "politics" that prevented a full accounting of the success of the p-39 also effected the P-63. It was in service with guards units from mid 1944 on but not officially recognized.....

By a 1943 agreement, P-63s were disallowed for Soviet use against Germany, and were supposed to be concentrated in the Soviet Far East against an eventual attack on Japan. However there are many unconfirmed reports from both the Soviet and German side that Supercobras did indeed see service against the Luftwaffe. Most notably, one of Pokryshkin's pilots reports in his memoirs published in the 1990s that the entire 4th GvIAP was secretly converted to Supercobras in 1944, while officially still flying P-39s. One account states they were in action at Koenigsberg, in Poland and in the final assault on Berlin. There are German reports of P-63s shot down by both fighters and flak. Nevertheless, all Soviet records show that nothing but P-39s used against Germany.

From the same article I believe humble.

In the Far East, P-63 and 39 aircraft were used in "August Storm", the Soviet invasion of Manchukoku and northern Korea, and a Soviet P-63A downed a Japanese fighter aircraft, an Army Nakajima fighter, Ki-43, 44, or 84, off the coast of North Korea.

Bronk

[humble]

Yup, think so Bronk......

[Soulyss]

I think a planes historical reputation and impact on WW2 doesn't nessesarily translate into AH, there are a lot of factors that made or broke a planes' wartime reputation.  In the case of the P39 it was a decent performer at lower altitudes for a plane of it's time period, low alt performance doesn't matter when you have zeroes crossing the Owen Stanley range 20K over your head.  Coupled with lack of range and being outnumbered, and less experienced pilots, of course the groups flying it in the PTO early in the war were going to get roughed up.  None of that applies to AH.  

I'd have to look @ the numbers but I believe the 39 was faster thant he P40 down on the deck (at least early model P-40's).  If I'm wrong someone please correct me, but that was my understanding. Considering it saw service across the globe (not to mention it was flown by the 8th fighter group) I'd love to see it in AH.  

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The comment about crashing P-39's to get another plane (the P-38) was written about ONE pilot, George Welch. A great pilot by any measure, Welch detested the P-39. However, the opinion of one pilot does not tell the story of any plane.

The P-39 was really no more a dog than the P-40, it's just that neither were high altitude fighters. Allison didn't have two speed superchargers, and the Air Corps ordered the turbocharger removed from the P-39, it originally had one. And after the war, one of the fastest prop planes at any altitude was a P-39 with a turbocharged engine from a P-38.

Used properly, in its own element, the P-39 was a decent ride. Not spectacular, but not abysmal either.

[skycaptn]

Anyone else ever notice that krusty's job on the forum seems to be to try and disprove anything anyone says?

Watch he will come back with some snide comment to this then attempt to always have the last word.

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by Krusty
This from somebody elses posts here on these forums a long time back. They were quoting a book when they posted.

As for low-down, sure it could fly better at lower altitudes, because the lack of a supercharger, but it has fairly bad instability in every flight sim game that has EVER modeled it , it's slow and sluggish even low down (albeit far far far worse up high). I don't think we can use pilot comments about "This was the best plane of the war" because many many posts over many many years have argued that any pilot will have a bias towards any plane that got him home alive, no matter how poorly the plane actually flew.

If this is a quote from a book that's supposed to sway people over to believing you know what your talking about, it's a bad choice. Notice that they are talking about how bad the P-39 has been modeled in FLIGHT SIM GAMES.

[humble]

With the P-39 all you need to do is look at the historical data and have some basic understanding of how the US army worked. The same "logic" that gave us the 75mm "short" gun on the sherman led to the P-39 being nuetered. The Army viewed the plane as a ground support aircraft as much as a fighter. This affected everything from pilot selection to training to initial tactics. All of the "bad press" is specific to initial impressions/combat experience vs the japanese during the early war.

If you read the russian stuff on the P-39 they dont suger coat any of the planes "problems". They simply do the best they can to work around them. They stripped alot of weight (including guns) and ran the engine significantly above US settings. Take a P-40B and knock out as much weight as you can...then strip the 4 30 cals out....then boost the man pressure 15%....you wouldnt even think your in the same plane.

During 1941/1942 the russians were being decimated in the air. The airmen who survived this meatgrinder were every bit as good as any fighter pilots in the world. The simple reality that they chose to give these elite pilots the P-39 over any plane available speaks volumes. The fact that these same pilots continued to fly it long after other "better" birds were not only available but "politically prefered" is even more telling.

A P-39 modeled to the russian specs on weight and engine performance would quickly become the new "spit 16" and probably dominate the midwar plane set.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by skycaptn
Anyone else ever notice that krusty's job on the forum seems to be to try and disprove anything anyone says?

Watch he will come back with some snide comment to this then attempt to always have the last word.

Excuse me, mr. flame poster, but after 40 posts I don't think you know what the hell ANYbody's job is. You're starting off on the right foot, though, if you want to post like an arse.

You've not read even 1% of the posts I've made on these forums over the years, newbie, so don't PRESUME to know even a fraction of what I'm about. Thank you, good night.

[Debonair]

 , kreskin!!:D

[wasq]

My take on this (based on solid facts )

1) Numbers, about half of the total P-39 total production were allocated to USSR (~4800 planes were received intact, some were lost in transit)
2) Ground attack

Contrary to popular western perception, Airacobras were not used for ground-fighting, but practically always as air superiority fighter. A big number of PVO regiments used Airacobras explicitly in the interceptor role.

3) Importance to USSR

The importance of the Airacobra for the total Soviet war effort is illustrated by the fact that Stalin himself intervened in summer 1944 in order to ensure uninterrupted supply of 100 octane fuel for Pokryshkin's fighter division 9 GIAD during Operation Bagration (From 23 June 1944 onwards) in Belorussia.

Reference: Geust-Petrov: Red Stars 4 - Lend-Lease Aircraft in Russia (ISBN: 952-5026-23-X)

[hubsonfire]

Well, if Krusty says history and the Russians who flew them in combat are wrong, that's good enough for me.

Seriously krusty, you live in some sort of alternate reality that is not compatible with that of the rest of the universe, and this leads me to conclude that your input, opinions, made-up numbers, and vague recollections of the opinions on the opinions on the opinions that some guy had about some thing at some point in the past don't really mean anything.

[skycaptn]

actually krusty your shortsightedness is once again predictable.

Unlike YOU I dont find it unbearable not to respond in a negative way to everything posted on the bbs.

Therefore I dont have 1.2 billion posts.

I think its psychological krusty.. Have you considered speaking to a professional?
I have several friends in the community of mental health who can assist you with this issue.

For now ill leave you with some tips.

Say "Can" not "Cannot"
Take your medications on a regular schedule.
Lay off alcoholic beverages during early morning hours.
Try not to be a energy leach (dont always try to take other peoples joy)

[wasq]

By the way, I have 2½ pages of text about Airacobra in that book, I can quote any opponents to death with it, so please give over. I don't want to type them all in since I have no scanner...

I have also 24 pages of pictures in the same book, but there's no way I'm going to try to draw them for you (due to the same lack of scanner as above:)).

[Krusty]

You all might want to do some searching before buying into humble's propoganda for the Soviet Uber Planes (TM). He's my squaddie and I'd wing with him any time, but he's been out-and-out dismissed by most of the folks on these forums that know what they're doing, and do this stuff for a living, on points from 109s to p39s and various things.

You dump watermelon on me for being "negative"? Dude, you instantly buy a gingerbread house in the middle of the woods. You go in you'll just end up in the oven like Hansel and Grettel. Do some checking first, man.

As for the arsewipe furboll, he's a retard. I know it's not nice to say this, but he really really is. He and his lovemate Stang were going on for a long time on channel 200 trying to get a rise out of me, calling me a liar to my face for something they weren't there to witness. I wasn't even talking to them. Furboll has a grudge and he's using that now. Once he calms down and regains his logic, by all means listen to what he says. For now, do not.

Again, skycaptain... You stick your own foot in your mouth. If, (hah, who am I kidding, your type would never bother) ... let's say "would you" have read anything else I've posted anywhere in the past year, you'd find that I am generally a helpful person. I generally don't get angry on the forums, but this nice little trifecta of Humble, Furboll, and yourself all ripping into me at once: I'm going to make an exception.

Consider that there are certain "types" in the world. You fall into a transparent category. You are quite transparent and easy to jump. You can change this, but I've seen your type before, and they rarely bother to try.

I'm done with this thread. I'm sorry if you all want to believe that the P39 was the best, fastest, most manuverable, nimble, best armed plane in the world ever. That's your problem. Just don't be sore when we get the P39 and it's at rated military specs, not your fantasy specs.

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Krusty

  *Poof* Be gone.