vertical turns

[df54]

what is the proper way to turn vertically. should i chop throttle or drop flaps or do both. I hear that energy fighting involves the vertical a lot im just trying to find some more specific info. also how would you practice offline.(i could film and use trailers to see how well i executed a vertical turn)

[Major Biggles]

nope, full power when you're going up, unless you're trying to force an overshoot

try to conserve energy while turning, don't just yank it. try for as many immelmans as possible if the other guy merges correctly with you, and if you need to, put your flaps out once you start getting slow up top.

vertical turns are really just loops, nothing special, just pull the stick back instead of rolling and turning to the side. don't just loop around and around though, use immelmans to reverse quickly, or enter into an energy fight with someone that merges with you.

[humble]

Basically if you go "over the top" that 1/2 loop is called an immelman. If your turn is on an angle (not purely vertical) then its a high yoyo...

How you do it is pretty case specific....as a general rule your trying to convert energy to alt and recapture it...but at times you may be in an angles fight where your use of throttle/flaps is to scrub E....but 90% of the time you keep on the gas and flaps are only used if needed to get over the top....

The spit/ki-84 clip shows both types of "vertical turn" as well as use of flaps at top....

[Murdr]

Immelman Excercise Film (imlexer.ahf)

[Murdr]

Ok to avoid any confusion here, I made another demonstration film of turns involving vertical components.  Consider the previous post as a visual dictonary of an Immelman.  Consider this film a visual dictonary of the following:

A "High Yo-Yo"
A "Pitch Back"
A "Chandelle"

I will be expanding on these 3 maneuvers in the future, but until then, here is a film of what they look like.


yopitchdel.ahf

[VermGhost]

Thank you Murdr for making those films and putting them up.  It really gives a good demonstration for rookies like myself who wonder at times what the hell is going wrong

[df54]

Thanks murdr. One more question. Inyour chopthrottle film why chop throttle?

[Murdr]

In that situation I *knew* a couple things.

1. I stalled into that reversal.  
2. I had more E than the spit, so his stall would be at a lower altitude than mine.
3. If I had stalled over and dove back down at full throttle, I would merge with the spit before he stalled.

So with that in mind, it comes down to a matter of timing it so that the merge happens when the spit is helpless in a stall, and cannot point his guns at me.

So the short answer is to delay the merge.  Instead of flying into a point blank head on, he started losing the nose around 600 yards distance, and I shot him point blank in the cockpit.

[Murdr]

Ok, as promised I was going to expand more on those other 3 maneuvers.  First off, I want to point out a difference between an immelman and the other maneuvers.  The immelman is an in-plane (geometricly) maneuver.  The yo-yo, pitch back, and chandelle are out of plane maneuvers.  This isnt particularly important tactically at this point, but bare with me because it will help you visualize the maneuvers.

To help with that bend a piece of wire (paperclip, ect.) into a U shape.  Lay it down flat.  That represents a 180 degree flat turn.  If you look at it from edge on, you'll see the turn takes place only in the horizontal plane.  You can rotate it through 360 degrees and looking at it edge on it will always give the silhouette of a straight line (hence in-plane).

Pick it up and hold it by one end of the wire, with the other end of the wire vertically over top of it.  Now it's an immelman, or invert it into a split-s.  Still they are in-plane turns.

Now lay it back down, and hold down the open end of the U with one hand while bending the closed end of the U upward 45 degrees.  Now you have a high yo-yo.  Turn it upside down, now it's a low yo-yo.  As you can see it begins and ends on the horizontal plane, but the rest of the turn is 'out of plane'.  (and now you cannot view it from any angle to create a silhouette of a straight line).

A yo-yo can be out of plane up to 90 degrees.  A pitch back is the first half of a 90 degree high yo-yo, which finishes off by leveling out at the opposite heading at the high point of the turn.

A chandelle is a 180 degree climbing turn (looks like a 1/2 spiral, not a U) where your bank angle stays pretty much constant in relation to the horizon.

Next installment Ill touch on where these maneuvers can be useful, and how they may interact with other ACM.

[vizwhiz]

Originally posted by Murdr
Ok, as promised I was going to expand more on those other 3 maneuvers.  First off, I want to point out a difference between an immelman and the other maneuvers.  The immelman is an in-plane (geometricly) maneuver.  The yo-yo, pitch back, and chandelle are out of plane maneuvers.  This isnt particularly important tactically at this point, but bare with me because it will help you visualize the maneuvers.

Just for those geometrically-challenged out there, when he said "in-plane" and "out-of-plane", he wasn't talking about being in and out of your AIRPLANE, he meant the plane or flat surface of all of the points in the turn.  

The top of a flat table is a "plane surface".  

You speed up your boat to get it up on "plane", or riding flat on the top of the water instead of pushing through the water.  

When talking about these turns, he's talking about staying within the plane (flat like a sheet of paper) or moving out of the plane during the turn.

I'm going to have to go check out these films...I turn vertically a lot instinctively, but not necessarily because I know what I'm doing!;)

[Damionte]

Ok all three of those are hard to do through hangers. I need to practice more.

It took me 13 tries to make one of those double hanger yo-yoes. I really don't know why I didn't quit after a dozen or so! After making that 1 I crashed another 8 times before I made it again. That's hard! At least I can do it now though.

My next question is, when exactly would I use that tight YoYo? I generally use a wider gentler hi yoyo when I'm tail chasing a tighter turning aircraft to stay on thier tail.

This tight YoYo seems like something you'd do to come back on someone who's been chasing you over some distance. My question is what's a minimum safe distance to do such a maneuver. (Roughly)

For instance last night I was being chased by a Seafire in my 38L. (Was my fault, I had pulled too tightly early in the fight and blacked out for a bit and he got in behind me.) I dove away from him and extended to about 1.9K. Unfortunately I extended in the wrong direction and was dragging him away from home and towards his own carrier group, which was not good as I only had about 6 minutes of fuel left.

So at this point I want to turn around. Would that have been the right maneuver? Or was he still too close?........

Hmm ok I know I'm kinda answering my own questions as I go and I'm rambling but bear with me.

I'm looking at the three maneuvers and applying them to my situation.

The high YoYo would have got me turned around nice and quick, and gave me back some energy as I came back down for the remerge. At the same time if I was off on the guys closing speed, or his ability to shoot, I would have been a pretty good sized target if he cought me at the top of the YoYo.

I don't like the switchback in this situation at all. It seems to slow me down at the top just as much as the YoYo, but I don't regain any energy and am sitting kind slow at the top. Plus he's cming at me from an angle ahead of and below my nose where I can't see him. Plus he has a lot of 38 to shoot at there.

I like the chantelle, but it seems predictable. With enough space though that shouldn't be a problem.

Wait I think I filmed this one......... Hold on!

--------------

Looking back at the film for this situation, I did the YoYo. The Seafire was further back than I remembered. By the time I did the yoyo he was 2200 back. He must have been pretty new as well, it seemed to catch him by surprise. I don't think he expected me to be coming back at him so quickly.

When I looked at the film from his plane view you can't tell what the P38 is doing until it was already spitting in your face. You see the 38 climb then you're suddenly closing on him very fast.

When I came back at him I came back shooting in the chicken fight to make him jink away. He blinked first and I zoomed past and sprinted for home.

---------------

Here's an interesting note about practicing. Until Murdr put up this film yesterday I never did my YoYoes like that. After putting in the time in the training room, my hands just remembered the maneuver. Later that evening when I got into combat I just did it. I didn't think about it. I just did it.

[Mace2004]

Damionte, based on your description of the circumstances you made the textbook call and high reversal was the right thing to do.  

BTW, in my experience the term yoyo is pretty much limited to maneuvers in a turning fight designed to either allow you to maintain e while preventing overshoots and stay within your opponent's turn circle (hi yoyo) or to gain e and cut across the circle to reduce separation (low yoyo).  There are similarities between yoyo's and various reversals but they are not the same because they have different objectives.  A pitchback is a high-e turn (as Murdr describes it's just part of a loop) and a wingover is either a low e maneuver or high-e used specifically for position advantage.  For most prop-driven planes a pure pitch-back usually degrades to something similar to a wingover because they have insufficient power to sustain corner velocity in the vertical for long so have to lower their nose.  EDIT: How "tight" of a high yoyo to use in a turn fight depends on your angles off, e and separation.  High angle off, high e means your yoyo must be very nose high and you could even be in a position to use a rudder reversal at the top to stay within your target's turn circle and get your nose around.  For low angles off and low e just a quick and slight nose-high move and pull right back down may be all that's necessary.

The decision of what type of reversal you're going to execute hinges on your e and separation.  The key objectives are to 1) maintain e, 2) maximize turn performance and 3) maintain/gain position advantage.  These objectives drive the type of reversal.  Also, I'm assuming you want to reverse for another merge or you don't have a very large e advantage.  

If you have a lot of e (i.e., well above corner velocity) and do a level or nose-low reversal your turn radius is large and turn rate is low, this is called "arcing".  A trailer can simply use geometry and fly lead-pursuit or a low yoyo to close the distance across your arc (this can be done whether you're arcing nose-high, level, or nose-low).  Arcing is where many many pony, lala and even 262 guys lose it and get caught by a slow plane like a hurri, the hurri is just flying a shorter distance and maximizing his acceleration by keeping his nose low so closes.  In high e situations you should decide on a nose-high reversal and trade airspeed for altitude while using G to slow you to your corner velocity for best turn.  

How "vertical" your vertical reversal is depends on how far above corner you are and your aircraft.  If corner is 225 and you're 450 then chop your throttle and go pure vertical for a vertical pitchback.  As you approach corner jam in full throttle (with WEP) and play your turn (lower your nose a bit) to stay near corner.  If your e advantage is great and your trailer can't match your zoom you can turn the reversal into a zoom climb (either inverted or roll out for an Immelman) back over your adversary and you're now in the cat bird seat.  

If you're at 300 then do an oblique turn instead of pure vertical.  In either case, when you get to corner you can increase your angle of bank and lower your nose to maintain corner.  Your choice of how oblique your turn is depends on your knowledge of your aircraft's corner velocity, sustained turn and energy addition capabilities.  The numbers I'm using are just for illustration, each airplane varies.

If you're at or below corner use full power and turn nose-low to at least sustain the e you have and if you have the separation accelerate to corner.  If you're at or below corner (or on the deck) then a tight wingover (similar to a high yo-yo) can work because, while the turn rate is lower, you're using geometry to minimize turn radius, take away angles and hopefully end up with at least a neutral pass.

[BaldEagl]

The reason that you use a yo-yo at all is to gain turn advantage and a lead shot.  Imagine flying in a horizontal circle against a similar aircraft with the same e at the opposing side of your circle.  If he continues in a flat circle and you yo-yo through half of yours you convert horizontal distance to a combination of both horizontal and vertical distance effectively tightning the turn on him when viewed from above.  This is true in both high and low yo-yo's.  The only difference is in the e trade-offs.  In the high yo-yo you trade speed for alt then exchange it back for speed and in the low yo-yo you do just the opposite.

As to when you should turn back on someone chasing you it depands on what planes you're in but I find a decent rule of thumb to be about 3K.  This usually gives you a head to head merge but not always.  Even in a lesser turning aircraft you'll be just coming out of your turn and can react as he zooms by assuming he's not already turning also to counteract your move.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
The reason that you use a yo-yo at all is to gain turn advantage and a lead shot.  Imagine flying in a horizontal circle against a similar aircraft with the same e at the opposing side of your circle.  If he continues in a flat circle and you yo-yo through half of yours you convert horizontal distance to a combination of both horizontal and vertical distance effectively tightning the turn on him when viewed from above.  This is true in both high and low yo-yo's.  The only difference is in the e trade-offs.  In the high yo-yo you trade speed for alt then exchange it back for speed and in the low yo-yo you do just the opposite.

With all due respect BE and IMHO that really isn't totally accurate.  In a very very broad and non-specific manner you could describe any up and down maneuvers like these as a "yoyo" but then things become rather vague.  The principal purpose of a high yoyo is to stay within your target's turn radius and behind his 3-9 line while maintaining your e.  It also is useful for increasing separation if you're too close and as a low-e vertical reversal where it's essentially just a wingover.  What you're describing as a "high yoyo" is just turning out of plane with your target and moving from a horizontal to a more vertical fight.  You're right that by turning out of plane by going nose high gives you the tighter effective radius and advantages of G working for you when you come back down but it only works if you've got the e to do it.  If you're co-e it's also very easily countered by your adversary if he 1) reverses, unloads and extends away while you bleed your speed or 2) he simply comes up after you.  A guy does this to me and I'll just watch him start up, overbank and accelerate under him for just a couple of seconds then lag him up.  He will either start down before I do putting me in a perfect spot to do a rudder reversal and hammer him or I've got him treed and he's got no place to go.

[porkfrog]

so ive been playing almost a year now, and while i feel i'm a decent stick, one who possesses a generalized understanding of basic ACM, i also feel like a complete dwoob when i hear some of you speak. i also get my @ shot off all the time. it appears to to me that there are 3 types of players in AHII; rookies, the majority, and the aces. Guys like Murdr/Creton/Mace/Bombardy (MIA lately) and a host of others will, do, could, and have eaten me alive. The gap in talent between "the majority", and the "aces" seems huge.  

The biggest things I've learned that have kept me alive longer were SA, understanding different aircraft, and patience. But terms like "torque roll" and "wingover", for example, leave me feeling, well, retarded. I could really use some time in the TA and the DA for some one on one instruction.


Here's a question...


If I'm closing on an nme from above or coalt with myself having the E advantage, and the nme makes an in plane or nose low break turn, and instead of trying to make the turn and lose my e, I go nose high climb briefly, and then roll back towards the now zoom extending nme, have I executed a High YoYo or a Pitchback?