Author Topic: Bailing Bomber pilots  (Read 1187 times)

Offline Big Mickey

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« on: December 04, 2006, 06:27:10 PM »
Just a quick whine here to those that drop and pop. Last night I am flying a jug and with my usual alt monkey skills I climb to around 20K to ingress into the target. As I am inbound I catch a friendly B24 formation, about 2k below, coming off the target. I assume he is heading back to base to land his mission.

I then spot an enemy Spit coalt with me who has eyes for the 24s. I wep it up and dive a bit to get some speed. I catch the spit as he starts to open up on the buffs. I am about 800 back but I give him a quick burst to hopfully change his mind. It works and he rolls off. I pull up to conserve E and have to make a couple more passes at this spit to make sure he gets the point.

After pass 3, and a few good hits, the spit driver decides to go low and bug out. The dar bar is darn near full red so I decide to not follow and help Shepherd the 24's out of the sector. I point my nose back up and towards the formation. As I am closing to escort this guy back...he bails! As far as I can tell there is no damage to the 24's, although I guess there is the possibility of a pilot wound. However the spit was always firing from the formations 6 so that would be a slim possibility.

So, the short story is, I gave up on a kill for an ungrateful dweeb that decided to say thanks by bailing, I am sure he was itchin to get back to his LA7.

Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.

Big Mickey

Offline Overlag

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2006, 06:53:13 PM »
its the new guys wanting counterstrike speed rounds that do this..

thats why everything should be perked and newbies only get the slowest planes... they would learn how to fly then.
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline LYNX

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 07:17:42 PM »
Guy was to lazy to RTB.  Just wanted to up again ASAP.  Prolly one the folks that cry "Ranks for dweebs".

Even if that is so why would you  wanna be some one elses perk point.  I advocate the enemy should earn your death.

Give a death away :rolleyes:
Be an enemy kill:eek:
Be a free perk point :confused:

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Offline Masherbrum

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 07:31:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
its the new guys wanting counterstrike speed rounds that do this..

thats why everything should be perked and newbies only get the slowest planes... they would learn how to fly then.


Yer quick to jump on n00bs, but the problem is more so with "Vets".
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Offline Overlag

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 07:49:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer quick to jump on n00bs, but the problem is more so with "Vets".


yeah, at least they hit there targets :D
Adam Webb - 71st (Eagle) Squadron RAF Wing B
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Offline Airscrew

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 07:50:29 PM »
I wouldnt be so quick to condem a "bomb and bail" there are instances were I've had to do something similar
1.  FHs down, take a A20 or SBD.  A few minutes after take off and climbing someone says FHs are back up.  Bail, get a fighter
2.  Bombing run, Squadies come on the radio and need help at another base, or needs vehicle supplies to rescue their Tiger;   if i only have a few minutes to drop point, I'll drop bombs and then bail.  if i'm several minutes out, then just bail.
3.  In a fighter or a bomber, not doing anything in particular maybe just scouting or flying to a strat target to blow something up.  A base starts flashing, bail and go defend.
4. Commanding officer (wifey) says haul prettythang, time to go, I bail no arguments, no matter how much I might want to land.

What I will not do is intentionally bail when an ememy plane is coming to avoid getting shot down.   heck thats partly the reason to take up bombers :t  its one of the few times someone doesnt run away from you

Offline AX_00

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 08:44:32 PM »
sometimes my mom yells at me to get off cause i was playing for to long... flying a long bomb mission...
i do my best to flip it on auto at +25k and see whats up in 20 min on the way back

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 09:01:41 PM »
Did he bail to avoid being shot down?  No, by your story he didn't.  It sounds like that instead of flying all the way back to his base he just bailed to get down faster.  No harm in that.

At least 25% of my deaths are from augering because I don't want to take the time to fly back to base.  It's a lot quicker and if you don't give a damn about your score/rank it doesn't harm anyone.


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Offline Big Mickey

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 09:25:24 PM »
Ack Ack... I am not saying it hurt anyone. I just was stating that I thought it a bit rude. Someone saves your bacon and then comes to help you finish your trip home and you bail! I know, expecting manners in this game is a kin to expecting the sun to rise in the west come tomorrow morning. But, had I been in a similar situation, say I had to bail to help a squaddie as Airscrew suggested, I would at least thank the pilot that helped me out and explain that I had to bail. Certainly not a necessary thing to do, but a gentlemanly thing all the same.

Now then....back to your regularly scheduled program of HOing, Running, Vulcing and general whining about game play.

Cheers Mate!

Big Mickey

Offline tedrbr

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 11:04:35 PM »
This argument and complaint popped up a week or two ago, but fell off the front pages a while back.  Since the :cry  was posted again, I'll post what I believe is the best solution to the percieved problem.

First of, I must say ....GUILTY.... well, sort of... if there is no action, and no obvious DAR or interceptor headed for me, I'll might bail.  More often, I'll bomb, then buzz the field to vulch and deack untill I get shot down.  If I have a few kills, I'll try to land them.  Over the past year and a half of play, I've gotten bored with repeated long buff runs for little purpose.


Problem: Buff drivers who bomb and bail (or auger).

Reasons: No real incentive to return to base and land. Perkies can only be used on Ar234, which many buff drivers don't care to fly. With no real need for perks, no reason to land the buffs.  This problem strikes both new buff drivers that are in a hurry to get back in the air, as well as experienced buff drivers that get bored with the long ride back, and no real reason or need for ANOTHER thousand buff perk points they won't be using.  To What Purpose?
No different than fitr pilot that HO's, fights to the death, or otherwise is not interested in landing any kills.


Possible Solutions:

Solution #1 - Go Better: Add perk-worthy bomber planes to the planeset.

Identified bombers that could be perk worthy: A-26 Invader, Mosquito B.Mk XVI, He-177, B-29. A-26 Invader is probably the most perk-worthy that we could actually see in-game (not going to see the B-29, a Skeeter is a Skeeter, and the He-177, though a nice addition to the heavy buff set, and non-American for a change, does not rate a high perk cost to be an effective economy sink for perks in-game).
Suggest that a flight of three A-26 Invaders might cost the same as 1 Me262 would in the arena. LW ride. A sweet attack plane, strafer, bomber interceptor, but not overly dominating in bomber role; and a decent economy sink for buff perks.

The Mosquito B.Mk XVI and He-177 would both be good second choices after an A-26 if you wanted to give 2 new buff rides.


Solution #2 - Go Bigger: Perkable Maximum Ord Load Options.

Allow pilots to use perks to load their buffs with the maximum ordance they could carry. Figure a cost per plane of about twice what they can earn from a typical successful mission. Multiple that across three planes in a flight, factor in failed missions, and this will limit how often buff drivers can run with max loadout.

Cons: The heavy loads with these planes on many of the game maps runways will result in overloaded buffs hanging in trees and imbedded into hillsides from failed take offs.  Many perks lost on takeoff like this.  Slower to alt. Slower speeds.

In game B-17 carries a maximum of 6,000 lbs (2721kg) of bombs. Normal bomb loads in Europe were 4,000-5,000 lbs. Maximum bomb load carried was 8,000 lbs (3628 kg) and the furthest the max load was carried was to Nienburg.  To do this, internal fuel cells in the bomb bays were removed... which for game purposes would limit fuel load to 3/4 of max. ** Unsure code can allow for this **  Not that we ever need heavy fuel loads anyways.....

In game B-24 carried up to 8,000 lbs, which was the historical max carried to Karlsruhe.  Theoretical max was 12,800, but this was impractical (bomb bay only so big).  Normal loads were 5,000 lbs.

In game Lanc III carries up to 14,000 lbs (6350 kg) of bombs, which was the rated max.  B1 Specials could carry the 21 foot (6.4 m) long 12,000 lb (5,448 kg) 'Tallboy' or 25.5 foot (7.77 m) long 22,000 lb (9,979 kg) "Grand Slam" "earthquake" bombs.  This required modification of the bomb-bay doors and limited the operational range to 660 miles. *** Could game code correctly model a Tallboy or Gland Slam blast effect?***  Tallboy or Grand Slam would have to be especially expensive,.... and a lone, slow, Lanc will attract all kinds of attention if these bombs are in-game.

In-game Ju-88 can carry 6613 lbs (3,000 kg) which is already more than sources I've read mention for this particular bird.

In-game Ki-67 can carry up to 1760 lbs (800kg) of ord, which is a normal bomb load. Maximum I've found lists 2,359 lbs, and up to 6,000 lbs on those used as Kamakazis.

***  Of course, some fitr pilots and furballs say, perk all ord..... in which case, you'll be hard pressed to even find a buff in the arena.... the buff rides get seriously nerfed in that manner, they just won't get used.  A bomber in flight will be as rare a sight as a C202 or A6M2 ***


Solution #3 - Go More: Allow the Purchase of Additional Drones

Allow up to three more drones, to compliment the existing two in a flight. Cost per drone a little less than an Ar234, to limit their use. Set up in a formation 3 across, 2 deep, and offset slightly (and preferable rear group a little lower as well, as was actually done.

Pro: single pilots having ability to wreck serious havoc on towns and strategic targets like cities and factories. Two or three buff pilots working together can be a strong force to be dealt with.

Cons:, unsure existing code can handle 3 additional drones, fire control really off for turrents.... will actually be less effective per gun against enemy targets due to convergence. Buff drivers will have to play off-line with salvos and delays to see what actually works well with new, larger formation. A boon of targets to those fitr jokes that are as adept at interception missions and killing buffs as pulling the wings off of flies.

3 pilots each upping 3 additional drones for a total of 18 aircraft would be very close to the 20 plane Bomber Group in the 8th AF.  9 pilots in this mode with 54 aircraft would come very close to an entire 60-plane Bomber Wing.

May lead to more common use of boxes in the arenas.   A target rich environment.

As well as being a economic buff perk sink.



No one solution works for everyone, for example; not-all buff drivers going to like a A-26 attack plane.  Many buff drivers go with biggests is bestest path, which is why you see many Lancs on low level attacks.  Solution #2 and #3 address this group of buff drivers.
 
I would recommend adopting any two of the three solutions mentioned to address the original problem of giving buff drivers a reason to collect and spend perk points in the game. This will reduce the number of bomb and bail runs to those that are purely there to grief and don't care about perks in any case.


Expected result. More bomb runs. More bombers trying to land after their runs. More high altitude bomb runs. More high altitude interceptors used to attack the buffs. Possibly bring strategic goals and targets back into the game on a higher level.


And if you are a buff driver that likes these ideas..... start bombing and bailing while in the arena all the time to increase the complaint factions in the boards.  Maybe something will happen then.  Like burning bras in the 60's.  Acts of protest!  Yeahhhh babbyyyy!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 11:06:56 PM by tedrbr »

Offline rod367th

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Re: Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2006, 12:31:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Big Mickey
Just a quick whine here to those that drop and pop. Last night I am flying a jug and with my usual alt monkey skills I climb to around 20K to ingress into the target. As I am inbound I catch a friendly B24 formation, about 2k below, coming off the target. I assume he is heading back to base to land his mission.

I then spot an enemy Spit coalt with me who has eyes for the 24s. I wep it up and dive a bit to get some speed. I catch the spit as he starts to open up on the buffs. I am about 800 back but I give him a quick burst to hopfully change his mind. It works and he rolls off. I pull up to conserve E and have to make a couple more passes at this spit to make sure he gets the point.

After pass 3, and a few good hits, the spit driver decides to go low and bug out. The dar bar is darn near full red so I decide to not follow and help Shepherd the 24's out of the sector. I point my nose back up and towards the formation. As I am closing to escort this guy back...he bails! As far as I can tell there is no damage to the 24's, although I guess there is the possibility of a pilot wound. However the spit was always firing from the formations 6 so that would be a slim possibility.

So, the short story is, I gave up on a kill for an ungrateful dweeb that decided to say thanks by bailing, I am sure he was itchin to get back to his LA7.

Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.

Big Mickey




you might have caught a guy with 2 accounts spit pings all 3   runs away then he grabs bombers bails for 3 kills for himself

Offline Lusche

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2006, 02:44:25 AM »
I might add another additional incentive for a buffer to RTB: A landing message similar to successful fighter sorties, e.g. "XXX has landed 4 destroyed Hangars" or "XXX has landed 50K of damage". Some bomb&bailers may actually strive for the cheers of the crowd then.
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Offline scottydawg

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Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2006, 06:28:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
I might add another additional incentive for a buffer to RTB: A landing message similar to successful fighter sorties, e.g. "XXX has landed 4 destroyed Hangars" or "XXX has landed 50K of damage". Some bomb&bailers may actually strive for the cheers of the crowd then.


That's a good idea.

Offline JB88

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Re: Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2006, 06:40:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Big Mickey


Now I know it's his 15 frog pelts and he can play however he wants, but IMHO....think before you pull this move. How many times have you flown a buff and prayed for an escort to drive off the bad guys so you can land your bomb run? Bailing after the drop when someone helped save your bacon only encourages folks to fly on by and watch as you explode.



HTC takes payment in frog pelts!?

cool...i gots me lots a dem.

this thread is doomed.
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Offline Big Mickey

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Re: Re: Bailing Bomber pilots
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2006, 08:05:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rod367th
you might have caught a guy with 2 accounts spit pings all 3   runs away then he grabs bombers bails for 3 kills for himself


huh ?????  :huh :confused: That is one hell of a lot of work for a few perkies. If someone would acctually do this, then I guess their punishment is simply having to go through life as themself.  :aok

Big Mickey