Author Topic: Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High  (Read 6892 times)

Offline FiLtH

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2006, 06:18:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by porkfrog
2 questions...


What's a "Lufberry"?  A german sweet berry of the mountains


What's "Cross Controlling"?  Catholics




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Offline Widewing

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2006, 06:40:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by porkfrog
2 questions...


What's a "Lufberry"?


What's "Cross Controlling"?





A Lufbery Circle is a defensive maneuver attributed to ace Raoul Lufbery during WWI. It is usually performed by two or more planes. They enter a tight, constantly turning circle. Thus, for an enemy to get onto the tail of one of the fighters, he is exposed to the guns of the next friendly in the circle.

Pilots often refer to a defensive circle (even if alone) as a Lufbery. If you have the better turning fighter and can draw a pursuing enemy into a Lufbery, you can eventually gain an advantage if the enemy remains in the circle too long.

Cross controlling is simply applying rudder in one direction and aileron in the opposite direction. IE: Rudder left, stick to the right. This causes the plane to yaw to the left while maintaining the same general heading. Yawing the aircraft generates a great deal of drag and rapidly burns off air speed. This maneuver may be used to force an enemy to overshoot, or to remain behind and enemy that is slower than you or attempting to slow and force you to overshoot.

You may find this graphic from a 1917 issue of The New York Evening World interesting.



My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 07:01:25 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2006, 07:00:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor
P38 could, and can in AH, outturn 109s. What I think you are doing wrong is comparing the J/L to E and F. P38G wouldn't have been fighting the E version often, but the P38G can outturn the 109F. I have no trouble outturning 109G2-109K4 in a J or L.


Raptor, I believe that you have out-turned some 109 pilots. Keep that in mind, because the turn radius of a 109F-4 is 23% smaller than that of a P-38G. 23% is huge, it's greater than the difference between a Spitfire8 and P-47D-25. It's greater than the difference between a Hurricane IIC and a Mosquito....

Turn radius and rate, 25% fuel, full ammo, full flaps.

P-38G: 560 feet @ 20.2 degrees per second
109F-4: 430 feet @ 21.0 degrees per second

Not only does the 109F-4 turn much smaller circles, it gets around the circle faster to boot. That's all bad news for the P-38G.

I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern if you wish to compare the two in a head to head test (not a dueling challenge, unless you so desire). I'll switch to a 109K-4 after that and we'll do some more turns. I think that you will be very surprised.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2006, 07:26:42 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:01:14 AM by Skuzzy »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Kweassa

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2006, 08:32:55 PM »
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Ah, wonderful - the tired old "wing loading" argument.


 Wonderful for me as well, since I've successfully eliminated the various other absurd accusations from your stock. I know my kind only too well.


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The Me-109 did indeed have a considerably lower wingloading than the P-38, but the 38 had massively better flaps and better liftloading (as well as several other factors).


 So let's hear just how a plane with 17,500 lbs mass with engines running at 3,200hp, loading of 5.46lb/hp with considerably worse wingloading, is supposed to outturn 7,270lb plane running at 1,800hp with much favorable loading of 4.03 lb/hp with a lower wing loading.


Quote
You can "calculate" which should turn better until you're blue in the face, leaving out factors. So did a group of aerodynamics students when they calculated that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly. But the facts remain that bumblebees can fly, and the P-38 was superior to the Me-109 in a sustained turn.


 You stated no facts, just claims. I could go to church and hear zealots stating more facts of divine intervention in earthly realms than any amount of comparable "fact" you've laid out here.

 The two things working in favor for the lumbering behemoth of P-38 is its torqueless nature and efficiency of flap usage, both of which AH P-38 adepts already make good use of. The P-38 already does outturn 109s in AH in many various situations working in favor for their pilots.

 But to claim that a plane more than twice in overall mass with both of the two key elements in deciding turn performance faring much worse, can out-right boast a better turning capability than a plane less than half its weight with both powerloading and wing loading in its favor, just because some slabs of metal extending down its trailing edge, is aburd to the max.

 As if 109s didn't have flaps of their own.


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Your assessment is quite the opposite of reality; the Me-109 was superior in instantaneous turn only. The P-38 would catch up in a few seconds.


 Your reality is a strange world indeed.

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Me-109 and P-38 aces all agreed that the P-38 turned inside the 109 "with ease," but that if they kept their turns short and reversed direction frequently the American would tire quickly because of heavier controls.


 Which P-38 and 109 aces said that?


Quote
You'll find dozens of Me-109 pilots who stated that the P-38 was the better turner, and you'll not find a one who said the opposite.

 
 Actually this statement from you clearly makes it possible to categorize you under the classic "anecdote lover". Tall tales of chest thumping quickly becomes 'proof' under your way of logic, does it not?
 

Quote
And please don't give me that crap from Galland (who later admitted that he wasn't speaking from experience); Galland said nothing about turning ability. You can do faulty calculations based on one of many factors, but you're always going to be wrong.


 Whatever you say, true-believer.
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Offline porkfrog

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2006, 08:50:04 PM »
Thanks WW for answering my 2 questions. Awesome image post as well.
-JoLLY
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Offline Benny Moore

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2006, 09:05:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
So let's hear just how a plane with 17,500 lbs mass with engines running at 3,200hp, loading of 5.46lb/hp with considerably worse wingloading, is supposed to outturn 7,270lb plane running at 1,800hp with much favorable loading of 4.03 lb/hp with a lower wing loading.

But to claim that a plane more than twice in overall mass with both of the two key elements in deciding turn performance faring much worse, can out-right boast a better turning capability than a plane less than half its weight with both powerloading and wing loading in its favor, just because some slabs of metal extending down its trailing edge, is aburd to the max.


You're a 109 fanboy.  I expect no more from you.  None the less, I am bound to point out for the benefit of others that the key is liftloading.  Lift not only determines climbing ability, it also determines turning ability.  The P-38 had a fantastic climb rate of approximately 4,800 feet per minute at war emergency power.  Your foolish wingloading argument sort of falls apart there.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2006, 11:40:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raptor
P38 could, and can in AH, outturn 109s. What I think you are doing wrong is comparing the J/L to E and F. P38G wouldn't have been fighting the E version often, but the P38G can outturn the 109F. I have no trouble outturning 109G2-109K4 in a J or L. Sometimes a good pilot will give me some trouble but the trusty ole P38 can fly slower than the 109 and once I get behind a 109, if it tries turning will soon realize it's not getting anywhere and will use it's speed to get away. Seems a lot like real life to me...

The P38 doesn't have to have alt to win... but like i posted earlier, a lot of people that think they know the P38 think that is how they have to get kills. Hell if I encounter a TnB plane in the MA and there are no other enemies around, if on the rare occasion I am higher, I burn E until it is co alt and hope they don't run.


Yea but how many here bother to try to slow down to fight?
Your typical player always fights with the throttle firewalled from takeoff to fiinal approach and never bothers to try and work it.
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Offline TheManx

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2006, 12:39:25 AM »
When I used to turnfight the 38 I always tried to start lower than the opponent so I could get into flaps before he could. Never had a great deal of success with it when I tried to use it to bnz. Hopefully it hasn't changed too much, because it was one of the more fun planes to learn.

Offline Husky01

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2006, 08:35:50 AM »
P-38 vrs a6m p38 should win
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Offline BugsBunny

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2006, 09:27:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
Ive killed enough players that dove on my lower P38 to say bollocks to the "you must have alt" crowd...sorry.   It is true that it is easier to kill your enemy when you have alt...the same can be said about any plane.  Heck, just last night I got bounced by a few higher cons...110s and 51s...they died.  Not always the case, but it does happen...more frequently than some of you guys think...i guess.


Killn, the key is equal pilots.  I kill lalas in my 202 also.  That does not mean the 202 is a good plane.  They are just new.

Offline killnu

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2006, 10:25:35 AM »
and the statements
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Basically to be good in a 38 you need alt and more alt


Quote
If you don't have a advantage in a 38 your dead.


are in fact garbage.  its the pilots, not the plane.
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Offline SkyRock

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2006, 10:33:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
its the pilots, not the plane.

Couldn't agree more,  guess that's why we squadies!:aok

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Offline Kuhn

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2006, 10:37:51 AM »
Don't underestimate any plane till its falling to the ground in pieces! :D
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Offline BugsBunny

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Why is the P-38 so underestamated in Aces High
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2006, 10:47:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
and the statements
 

 

are in fact garbage.  its the pilots, not the plane.


Agreed, but when I talk about a plane, I assume equal pilots.  So, equal pilots - in my opinion - Spit 9 vs p38, Spit wins