Author Topic: BnZ  (Read 736 times)

Offline 1cemanVS

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BnZ
« on: December 06, 2006, 08:16:03 PM »
I dont know what it is, but i am more successful with the p51 what i do TnB, or general play the low game, for the last 2 nights ive been trying to use BnZ in my 51, as i am always reading its a BnZ fighter, which makes sense, so i figure if i can master BnZ i should be even more successful than when i was on the deck with everyone else....so a few problems/questions:

1) when i get over the fight at about 12-15k i pick a target (i know im not really supposed to "pick" a target for BnZ but i do just to give me a target for my pass) and i come down to their alt, doing say 300-400 but its at this point that i can never manage a guns solution, or i do for a brief moment, but totally miss my shot cus of my speed....

ie..i try to pull ahead of them to cut their turn...but leading them i lose them under my fuselage, then its just a guessing game....

2) even before im engaging i have pilots eying me up...and am usually being engaged by other BnZ'ers as i make my zoom, then i have no real tactics to counter except for shallow climbing and hoping they run out of E or if not, a split-s, but usually they are chasing me with more E, hence catching me, so even with a split-s they follow and catch me up on the low run, and it turns into a turning fight, which im sick of now.....

so any help on these 2 main points, and any other tips would be great, feel free to elaborate on my problems and scenarios, and ill be happy to record some of my flights of anyone really wants to help...

for a note ive read the htc trainers peices, and the net aces stuff on most of the basic acm...which is why ive been trying to utilise BnZ more in my 51....

thanks in advance

Offline Spatula

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BnZ
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2006, 08:58:06 PM »
Where do we start?
Yes, P51s are good at BnZ, so is just about anything. Sounds like you know what it is in principle so thats a start. The basic premise is you are using a massive speed difference to close on a unsuspecting target as quickly as possible and kill them either before they notice you, or have time or speed to spoil your gun shot. A pilot that has his wits about him, and keeps his crate at or need best corner speed is always going to be extremely hard to kill in a purely BnZ fashion. Its too easy to side-step a BnZ fighter which is screaming in full tilt - espc someone who is new at BnZ.
I got a suggestion to try. Learn about pursuit curves (Lead, Pure, and Lag pursuit) and use them as appropriate. Normally n00bs come screaming in using pure-pursuit and get all frustrated they are 1, seen from miles out, and 2, miss their shot as they get into gun range cause they're slightly 'out-of-plane' with the intended victim. A useful tip is to use lag pursuit when starting your run in. This has two advantages: 1, by the time your in guns range, you will have pulled into pure pursuit and you will be 100% 'in-plane' (assuming they haven't maneuvered radically yet); 2, you will dead behind them and for the most part harder to see. In fact i dive just slightly lower than them then come up to shoot. Doing this puts you out of their site, and you can tell quickly whether or not they've seen you in advance. If they do a slight roll and slip then they know your there, they're pushing you out of their blind-spot.  If they dont move and keep going dead-level, they either have b@lls of steel and are trying some cunning last-second evasive, or they ain't seen ya.
So dive to a point on their extended 6 and slightly lower than them (distances may vary depending on scenario), but you want to make sure you're coming dead at them from the lower rear to maximise success chances.

But like i said, BnZ is easily defeated by all but the n00b and the blind. What you need to do is learn how to Energy Fight - LOTS more difficult! so prac your BnZ and you will start learning the groundwork for serious E fighting.


As for your second problem. Well, sounds like your making your attack runs when you know you are opening yourself up for becoming attacked yourself. Simple answer really... Attack when you know no-one else will just cherry you while your pickin someone else. Sometimes this requires patience and discipline and experience.

And finally, why aint you supposed to "pick" a target?? Says who? Pick one by all means, and plan out your attack and retreats from that. But what i suspect your getting confused with is "dont get target fixated", eg if you bounce an intended victim, and miss, and then you notice someone else who is a bigger threat, dont be afraid to switch targets. You dont have to finish everything you start in the order you started; situations change rapidly, be prepared to adjust just as quickly.
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Offline Rocket

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BnZ
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2006, 09:46:23 PM »
A long time ago I watched a film from Wardog with the ultimate BnZ tactic being used.  There was a huge furball and he in his trusty stang.  He amassed about 12 kills.  Watching the film I don't think he dropped much below 400mph during the raid and about 500 most the time.

Spat has good advice.  When I bounce I try to boom in as fast as possible and get under them so they can't see me coming.  If they break I just zoom and out setup a new pass but this time switching to an E fight to get angles on them.  I should still have superior E.  I find that people become predictable.  They have a tendency to favour one direction to break when you attack.  Exploit this when you can.  When I am playing the BnZ game and they split S  I go up.  If they make a flat break turn then I lag roll to the angle (if they pull hard left then I pull up and roll right bringing my nose into lag pursuit behind them.  You will lose sight for a moment but setup right this isn't much of a problem).  

I try to keep my speed up.  Speed is my friend 2nd to alt.  Don't let them drag you down to a low fight and get you slow where they have help around.  If you are jumping into a furball to get the quick kills keep you SA up lest you run into someone doing the same as you.  Never turn more than once before extending or leaving.  Go vertical whenever they stay flat or dive away.  Always keep your fight out of plane with them.  

Oh yeah and if someone comes on and complains you cherry picked em you did your job right!!! :D  If they want a straight up fight then they can go to the DA.  In the MA environment they lost SA and you killed em without them knowing, which is the best kill to get as they don't get a chance to put guns on you.  

S!
Rocket

Offline Spatula

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BnZ
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2006, 09:53:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rocket
A long time ago I watched a film from Wardog with the ultimate BnZ tactic being used.  There was a huge furball and he in his trusty stang.  He amassed about 12 kills.  Watching the film I don't think he dropped much below 400mph during the raid and about 500 most the time.


Yer, when i first joined AH 1 beta in 99, i made good friends with Wardog, and i watched some of his films of his furball sweeps in either his stang or his tiffie. To this day i cant duplicate his uncanny ability to 'scoop' 5-6 kills per pass - it was amazing to watch.
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Offline Rocket

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BnZ
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 10:11:49 PM »
I'll check when I get home to see if I still have that film.  I have a working copy of an OLD version of AH that still plays those films.  I may have to figure out a way to copy them all to mpg or avi so I don't loose em.

Oh btw I understand War maybe flying in here again.  I would love to get up and fly with him again.  

Hangtime was another that ruled his area in the 'stang.


S!
Rocket

Offline 1cemanVS

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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 10:41:26 PM »
thanks for the advice so far, a few things you said ring true to me, like always going to guns and still being too high, and totally missing him, so will try and go lower and come up onto the same plane

ill also check out the pursuit curves, sounds like the answer to most of my problems, i think some of it also might be down to bad choice, and dropping on someone then them casually making a turn i didnt expect, or cant turn with myself...i guess thats down to bad choice and setup/predicting the target, which comes with time more than anything i guess....

ill look into pursuit curves, and hopefully that will prove insightful into my problems, and now that someone has highlighted some of my mistakes that i can now visualise that i actually do make, will help me verify them when it comes around again....

more opinions and suggestions/pointers are still welcome, thanks so far..

Offline Spatula

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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 02:03:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rocket
I'll check when I get home to see if I still have that film.  I have a working copy of an OLD version of AH that still plays those films.  I may have to figure out a way to copy them all to mpg or avi so I don't loose em.

Oh btw I understand War maybe flying in here again.  I would love to get up and fly with him again.  

Hangtime was another that ruled his area in the 'stang.
 


Yer, wardog did come back for a tour or so a month or so back, but i aint seen him since. Sent him an email and no reply either. he did a tour under the handle wardogg. Must check the scores page and see if hes been active recently.

An seen hangtime for ages tho. Those two were my inspiration to fly the mustang, and i still do as my main ride to this day.
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Offline humble

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BnZ
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2006, 09:31:40 AM »
As mentioned above "B&Z" really isnt....practiced at its highest form "E fighting" is really an art form and guys like wardog and hangtime are "legendary" within the game for their skill.

1st and formost recognize that its very hard to learn E fighting in the massive enviornment we have now. Simply to many cons around to manage alot of the time....

Here are a couple of things that will help....

1st learn to shoot from the "bottom up". Your E state dictates that control surfaces will be less effective. When you combine that with an increase in your speed and a decrease in the targets speed any true guns solution is impossible. By learning to set your bounces up so your flying up and thru the target you'll be increasing the effectiveness of your control and banking E for later use.

If you look at the "training clip" I posted you'll see a couple of suitable approaches....on the 1st kill the classic "zoom bounce" positioning gived me the correct position to counter the hogs break. On the second "bounce" you can hear me commenting on the ponys "options"....i'm well prepared for his "break" and land damage. What you see next is a transition directly from "B&Z" to angles....which isnt really smart or proper....but always alot of fun:).

This was done for two reasons...1 its how I fly normally & 2 it fit well with what I had been working with loctite on in the TA. Given the # of gentle caress's from the ponies .50's its easy to see the learning curve is littered with gently falling plane parts....but once you "get it" you now have all options open....

This is a P-51 vs spit hop that shows a more classic "E fighting" kill. you'll notice I'm faster and higher but not out of control. I turn agrresively but dont get under him. I need to get him turning....then I work him from the top down but never really under him....

http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Fighting%20with%20the%20advantage.ahf

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Offline BaldEagl

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BnZ
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2006, 10:11:40 AM »
You're encountering your second problem because your not taking care of yourself strategically.  If other BnZ fighters are catching you then they were also high to begin with, therefore, they were bigger threats to you than anything on the deck and needed to be dealt with before you began your BnZ runs.  If you want to stay alive in this game you have to deal with your biggest threats first, then work your way down the threat list (unless you're the only high plane and will have enough e at the bottom to outrun even the fast guys).  The possible exception to this is if the enemy is higher than you can reasonably climb to without losing significant speed.  Then you're forced to decide whether to turn around to gain more alt to engage him first, or to continue your BnZ run on lower planes knowing that the higher plane is likely to aquire your 6.
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Offline 1cemanVS

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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2006, 10:17:15 AM »
thats really useful video, i havent used flaps before, but will now try..this will probably really help me slowing a bit if im engaging too fast, or he makes a sharp bank..just a slightly more responsive/stable gun platform.........

i would gladly arrange for you to take me up some time, and you can see what im doing wrong, or i can send you film, whatever...but i really want to get beter at this :)

Offline humble

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BnZ
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2006, 12:17:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1cemanVS
thats really useful video, i havent used flaps before, but will now try..this will probably really help me slowing a bit if im engaging too fast, or he makes a sharp bank..just a slightly more responsive/stable gun platform.........

i would gladly arrange for you to take me up some time, and you can see what im doing wrong, or i can send you film, whatever...but i really want to get beter at this :)


I've been swinging by the TA for a bit recently....should be in a little every evening AZ time. If you see me online feel free to tag along as an observer. Be happy to grab a bony and fly a B&Z hop for you....

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