General Strategic thinking.

[Flayed1]

I've been playing in LW Orange from the time the change was first made and I keep seeing people say that there is no strategic play invoved any more and it is all just a bunch of furballs around the map.....


 I have to say yes it is a bunch of furballs around the map if nobody takes charge.  With this system leadership is really important and I've seen very little of it.

I would say that there are some rules to the strat play and they are important when trying to play this new setup...  

 1st.  You need to get people organised. Be it squad or a bunch of new guys that are just trying the game for the first time.    If there is no organisation than you end up with a stream of green and red planes coming into contact here or there with no real target and just end up furballing.

 Second are you attacking or defending?  If attacking depending on how many people you are leading there are a few choises.  If you have a lage bunch of guys/gals you could try a smash and grab this is the most basic form of strat play but will work if you have a big enough force. If not then you just flew into a meat grinder.  
   Or if you don't have an overwhelming force you could give everyone targets on the base and make it a more coordinated smash and grab. Take down hangers, have some 110's or bombers if your timing is good smack townand have fighters to cap the IL's and such while goon gets in...

  These seem to be the most common forms of strat play and really don't require a bunch of thought but work a good share of the time.

 Now if you go down to the point where you really don't have the people to pull off a capture what do you do to attack?  

  I would start by hiting the ack factory for what ever zone you are taking bases in.  If you can make it to  the factory with just a few people in medium bomberes or heavy attack craft and take a good chunk of it down the bases you attack in the future will be much more friendly for longer periods of time than normal once deacked.  

Then run some simple deacking missions... YAK-9T's work well for miisions such as this. One 37mm cannon round any where near an ack gun and pop. Not to meantion the 9T is a small target and has fairly good speed.  But you could do this type of mission with many other planes.

 I think hitting radar factories and porking dar on bases would be second on my list. If the NME cant see what direction you coming from all the better.

 
Now for defence.  First and most important I feel is troops.  If you are attacking you need to pork troop factories first then barracks on the bases  becaus I belive the barracks only stay down 15min now (HT correct me if I am wrong) so the defenders can't take your freshly aquiered bases back and the same if defending though if you are the defender I think porking the troops on your land is more effective than trying to pork troops on an NME's land because unless the attacker has your zone base the troops you pork should stay down a long while unless they manually fly/drive sups into the base.

Ord would be my second choice for things to kill while defending... Same rules apply as with troops.


 I would pork fuel to but as they are set up now they arn't worth the time.

 Bombing cities is a bonus because they keep the factories down even longer.



  But again it all comes back to leadership, cooperation and tactics.   I have given much thought to the placement of the lines in orange and I see no reason any of these bases can't be captured. (Other than the ones that should have 2 way lines to them that only have 1 ways on the inner loop)


 If a line system is given enough thought I feel the players should be able to figure out how to defend and attack.  The biggest reason I think we havn't seen a reset in orange is that very few are willing to take the lead and press the attack in a smart way..
 

 Granted there are a few things I think could be changed to make the line system better but I think even as is it can work.  So I say lets see who is willing to lead their country to victory!!!

[FiLtH]

Does strat work?  It seems if you blow up the infantry factory, at least not too long ago, the the barracks would still come up at the same time as if it were 100%.

   One of the things Ive seen in the Orange test, is that people enjoy the way it funnels people to an area. Especially if a CV is there since its so close.  If anyone tries to destroy the CV they get yelled at by their own teammates.

   Its very difficult to get enough people who want to capture bases. Many, including myself some nights, would rather just fight the CV off the shore.

   Unless you have overwhelming numbers, its tough. And when you have the numbers, it becomes unfair. Enough p40s and Bostons will still get land if the sides are unbalanced enough.

   Bombing bases makes captures possible, but upsets both the enemy and some of your own team.  

    I'd like to see bombers required to have a mission of 5 bombers, before it can even launch. I'd like to see only shore guns, other ships, or torpedos be the only things that can sinks the ships. They could stay around longer, their AA defenses could be whittled down by bombs, fighters could still fly, but it would take a torpedo strike to kill the ships. I know myself and many others can take 1 element of B24s and kill a turning CV at 20K with 4 bombs. Its just too easy and completely ends the battle.

[SlapShot]

Spot on Flayed.

I have been flying exclusively in LW Orange to see how this all plays out and have also been switching sides to see how each country is handling it.

From what I have seen ... and to point out what Flayed said ... for the most part, people are flying around in a haze. They are still thinking that they are flying in past "horde" mode and are attacking, but without forethought and organization ... which now results in failure.

Last night I see on the map a bunch of green dots all around a field. When I get there ... all ack is up and all they are doing is picking off planes as they leave the ack umbrella ... not a coordinated attack by any means ... so that blue line does not advance.

On the other hand, I have also seen small groups that do get it and organize anywhere from 5 to 20 people to make coordinated attacks. These attacks consist of both ground and air support and for the most part ... are successful ... and fun.

Flayed ... I think that we will have to wait for things to evolve. Those who get it and are having success ... they will be the future leaders, but its going to take time for people to accept these people as leaders enough to follow them.

[President]

no IT IS pretty much just a bunch of FURBALLS  

IT MAKES ME CRY  

Difficult to get a good 1 on 1 in orange cause everyone concentrated in the FURBALLERS ZONES with the FAT icons.

But if you like furballs, u will love ORANGE  

Guess I can always invite people into dueling arena for 1 on 1

[68Ripper]

Get organized? take charge? what a novel idea. Unfortunately if you attempt any such action you'll get the "furballer special" - you pay my $14.95 and I'll do things your way, otherwise stfu. And you could never get the knits to organize.

[Overlag]

basic plan of attack as well as defence for attacking really.

P51s need to be light.... high, and they need to force other planes down low.

attack planes need to take out hangers with first dive bomb, then deack with rockets.

50% of the attack planes then join the P51 in patrol areas depending on where the defenders are coming from.

the other 50% will hold cap on the field, and help with town.


so now you gotta keep the area free of enemy from OTHER bases. and its not all about vulching.

[President]

Originally posted by Overlag


basic plan of attack as well as defence for attacking really.

P51s need to be light.... high, and they need to force other planes down low.

attack planes need to take out hangers with first dive bomb, then deack with rockets.

50% of the attack planes then join the P51 in patrol areas depending on where the defenders are coming from.

the other 50% will hold cap on the field, and help with town.


so now you gotta keep the area free of enemy from OTHER bases. and its not all about vulching.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by 68Ripper
Get organized? take charge? what a novel idea. Unfortunately if you attempt any such action you'll get the "furballer special" - you pay my $14.95 and I'll do things your way, otherwise stfu. And you could never get the knits to organize.

are u still in the 68? 68 and the FB's joined a few of bustr and one of my missions and had a blast... it was so setup well. the whole 68 did one job, the fbs did another, and the randoms..... well did random things lol

[Overlag]

Originally posted by President

?


edit: just seen name.... its not a furball.... its combat.

[President]

Originally posted by Overlag
?

THEY ARE FURBALLS

[Quah!]

I have to say yes it is a bunch of furballs around the map if nobody takes charge. With this system leadership is really important and I've seen very little of it.

Flayed you may be right about your tactics but LWOrange is far from a bunch of furballs.

You guys that think so really don't know what a furball is.

What unorganized LWO really is, is base defense at it's worst.  Too many friendlies circling around their base fighting each other for the meandering pork and auger heros.

So if you fly to the enemy base is's the same as what you left.  If you try to meet in the middle you need to climb to 15k because everyone is doing the safety dance up there.

So yes new change is nice to force more possibilities of fighting, but it is far from furball central.

But I you in trying to get people thinking about how to work the system, if they take your points we should start to see some better action.  

[hubsonfire]

I notice, with a few exceptions, that the larger squads are rotating over to blue, where it's still business as usual. I also am seeing a lot of newer players, many of which are still trying to figure out the fundamentals, and probably aren't all that interested in strategy yet. It is disappointing to see so many people who, when presented with the challenges of the new setup, just bail and head for the arena where they can avoid the enemy, instead of trying to outsmart him.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
I notice, with a few exceptions, that the larger squads are rotating over to blue, where it's still business as usual. I also am seeing a lot of newer players, many of which are still trying to figure out the fundamentals, and probably aren't all that interested in strategy yet. It is disappointing to see so many people who, when presented with the challenges of the new setup, just bail and head for the arena where they can avoid the enemy, instead of trying to outsmart him.

the larger squads and older players prefer it the old way.

Orange is like the German/Soviet army.... Hitler/Stalin in total control and the "generals" (lol) cant choose anything even if they "know better".

Blue is like The allied armies (and the soviet from 44 onwards) where generals have control of there movements, although the country has overall control.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by President
THEY ARE FURBALLS

the point is... this system does have its merits... furballers can now "work" together with this base taking stuff, instead of whining about it.

instead of a furball being between enemy and friendly bases, its now between enemy and the enemy base we are trying to take.

so its a furball but a useful one.



both sides of the fence should be happy with the organised missions.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by President
no IT IS pretty much just a bunch of FURBALLS  

IT MAKES ME CRY  

Difficult to get a good 1 on 1 in orange cause everyone concentrated in the FURBALLERS ZONES with the FAT icons.

But if you like furballs, u will love ORANGE  

Guess I can always invite people into dueling arena for 1 on 1

Those aren't furballs you are seeing.

If there is an active attack/capture running into an active defense ... that is a "fight".

If there are a bunch of friendlies at med to high alt along with enemies at med to high alt dancing around and avoiding each other ... that is a bunch of guys trying to find their bellybutton with both hands.

If there are a bunch of friendlies at low alt along with enemies at low alt actively engaging like sharks in a feeding frenzy ... that is a furball.

I have yet to see a true furball in Orange since the new capture idea was implemented.

I have had many good 1 v 1s, 2 v 1s, and 3 v 1s, in Orange ... I just go to the less traveled attack path and stay away from the large horde running on a different attack path. Also, I have participated in some very successful captures being run by small groups of between 10 to 20 people working together both in the air and on the ground.

What really has surprised me the most about this system and I don't think that HT could have forseen this, is the amount of GVs on the ground and how important they have become in trying to capture a field.

Before this change, it was just bring a chitload of planes ... de-ack the field and town in 5 seconds ... get the troops in. Capture attempts that can use both air and ground forces are a lot of fun. The communication going on between the air cover and the ground pounders is amazing and works like a champ.

Capture attempts that can't use ground resources are more difficult, but can be done and be fun.