Author Topic: Changes to come.  (Read 39321 times)

Offline HomeBoy

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Changes to come.
« Reply #270 on: December 11, 2006, 12:56:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by pluck
but clearly there are not enough people who switch sides as it is, otherwise there would not be large number imbalances.  also, some guys, even a couple i remember seeing posting, do not belong in a squad, but won't switch countries.  do you really think squads who won't switch of there own free will, and those saying they have no freedom are going to accept flying for a different country?  at least this way, they still have the choice to continue to fly for their country....if they want to wait, if they want to change areans, or if their country isn't holding a big numerical advantage.  just my thoughts.


My sense is if you did a good job of dividing up the squadrons across the three countries, that would sufficiently balance things so that where to put the "freelancers" would almost not matter.  [I'd love to know how accurate I am on that.]  From talking with members of squads, I also get the sense that most squad members don't care as much for the chess piece as they do the squad they're in.  That's why I feel the "squad divvying" concept just might work.

Please indulge me this little rant.  I just roll my eyes when I hear the phrase "loyalty to a chess piece."  It sounds cleaver enough but it's a pretty naive view of the issue.  It's really not "loyalty to a chess piece" at all.  It's a comraderie thing.  After a while, you get to know guys in other squads who have joined in a base takeover, etc. and you enjoy helping that squad accomplish an objective.  You get and receive "check 6s" between these guys and enjoy seeing them again days later.  You see them and recall the fun you had in a battle with them.  It becomes a family thing.  Surly you understand that don't you?  [Rant off]  Even with all that, the loyalty to the squad is tighter than the country (IMHO) and forcing a squad to change countries would be something I feel most would accept (even though all of what I've just said would apply and the change would not come without some bit of whinning.)  If the squad divvying is done well enough, it might even work out that there might not be that much moving around;  one big move might do it for a year or more.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 01:01:18 PM by HomeBoy »
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Offline Stiletto

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Re: Re: Would appreciate an Answer
« Reply #271 on: December 11, 2006, 01:03:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BugsBunny
Because everyone will just go in that arena.  Sorry, I am a developer :D


Greetings from an old Air Warrior, and an AH squad member since we all moved here from EA, years ago.

This is my first post in this forum since we moved here, but I have a few things to say about all of these massive changes to the game arenas.

First, I have a couple of questions: Why was the MA split into several arenas? Was it a technical thing? Was it a business decision that HT hoped would make the number of subscribers grow?

Whatever the reason, I don't see the positive benefits of it. Constant change may be how real life works, but it has been my observation that if you constantly screw with a game, people eventually throw up their hands and find one that they can depend on to be somewhat predictable and simple to understand, even if stoned or drunk. (Sorry, just trying to be realistic here.)

On "combat game" vs "wargame": A video combat game doesn't need any set of gameplay rules except those that make the sides even, and it's all about furballing. You don't need any sort of historical realism, and in fact, you can invent weapons and vehicles just for the pure fun of it. That type of video game has its place. But by its nature, a "wargame" is a simulation of a particular situation, a particular set of combatants, and a particular technological stage of development for weapons, aircraft and vehicles. Saying to people who subscribed to AH because they enjoy a (yes, let me say it) serious wargame, that it's just a game and they shouldn't take it so seriously, is tantamount to telling them that they should be content in playing a combat video game, even though what they bought was something else. Nothing good can come of this approach. A good WWZII wargame is going to have furballing, territory capture, defense, offense, strats, supply and communication lines that can be disrupted, etc., etc.

On squads: Squads are the real community for many of us. They are like families that you can count on in a sea of indifference and online anonymity. I guarantee that if you force squads to switch countries, or worse, fight against each other or log, you will kill AH. I can't speak for other squads, but the Flying Tigers AVG and SkyKnights are filled with people who are loyal to each other first, and to the game second, and often, squaddies re-up their AH accounts solely out of loyalty to their friends.

On hording: Sometimes you horde, and sometimes you get horded. The old gameplay model had an ebb and flow to it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I belong to a squad (The Flying Tigers AVG), and we fly with a sister squad of bomber pilots (The SkyKnights). With one MA, you played the hand that was dealt you by circumstances. When we logged on for squad ops, we played the game for our country (not "chesspiece"), whether we were the horders or the hordees. It didn't matter which was which, because the important thing was that we we took pleasure in flying combined ops with each other.

On Balance: I hear people say that balance is so very important. I simply don't agree with this at all. We've had just as much fun in fighting against a horde as in being part of one. This is an attitude issue - not a balance issue.

On ENY: Let people fly what they like. It is, after all, just a game. ENY just irritates people.

On whining: Is that what started all of this? Mass numbers of whiners attempting to control the gameplay? It feels like HT is surfing the whiner wave, instead of letting people just play the game and whine all they want - something whiners are going to do, no matter what HT does with the arenas.

Suggestion: If the split arenas are here to stay, let's see what happens if there is one old-style MA with a 600 person cap, hording allowed, may the best horde win, etc., etc., and see what happens. If, as Bugs says, everybody will just go there, then there is the answer to what the community wants - whiners notwithstanding.

Meanwhile, both the Flying Tigers and SkyKnights are losing players to other games in unprecedented numbers - something we've never seen before, and all for the same reasons: too much screwing with the game. There is a limit to how much crap people will put up with. I hope it ends soon.

Respectfully submitted,

Stiletto
XO
The Flying Tigers AVG - now in our 10th year as a squad

Offline john9001

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« Reply #272 on: December 11, 2006, 01:14:55 PM »
"surfing the whiner wave"  lol
:rofl   :aok

Offline HomeBoy

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Re: Re: Re: Would appreciate an Answer
« Reply #273 on: December 11, 2006, 01:15:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stiletto
This is my first post in this forum since we moved here, but I have a few things to say about all of these massive changes to the game arenas.


Wow!  I have to admit that I didn't think I was going to like what you had to say.  I was wrong.  You actually make a lot of sense.  S!

Reminds me of something someone I know pretty well said:

"I think the biggest problem we have is the lack of understanding of exactly what the problem is!"
The Hay Street Boys

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #274 on: December 11, 2006, 01:22:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FALCONWING
i believe i was making two points simaril....

1) it is rubbish to continue to try and assign blame to anyone paying $15/month for a service for the fact that the game is "broken".  If players can stay within the designed rules of the game and it can not be "fair" then i blame the programmer (rule maker)...not the players.  (the often used "basketball" reference doesnt fly because noone is playing 10 vs 5...see the rules only allow 5 v 5...so 10 v 5 would be breaking the rules.)

so please stop saying that WE are at fault...let me reexamine my objectives for this game....

...snipped for space...

2) i dont care if it turns out we have to jump countries to fly together...i just know (as anyone who plays does) that numbers vary dramatically and who wants to play "jump countries til all the squaddies who happen to be on right at this moment can be the same country...but whoops 30 minutes later 2 have logged and 3 new ones are stuck having to play another country??)  


...snip...

so NO Sim i dont think im gonna let folks like you try to make me feel small for not "doing our part"...its time the leadership around here took some responsibility and quit releasing more wild horses from their barns.

so far you have supported them completely...have all their moves been superb then or can you only see that the community is the problem?


Aside from the jab at the end, thanks for a reasoned and responsive post.


I'm with you 100% in thinking having fun with friends is the entire point. Nothing else matters; and in the end, nothing is more important than the people.

We just need to remember that applies to people who arent in our groups, too. So, when we see that our side outnumbers the others by a lot, it would be good to switch things (arenas, countries, whatever) so THOSE guys have the same opportunity for fun that we do.

And as a community, we didnt do that. So, since WE didnt take the needs of others into account, HT had to make a rule to do it for us. The game was "broken" (your word), and though we could have "fixed it" without force we chose not to, for whatever reason. Now its a rule.

I forget where the problem was?

The whole thing seems pretty obvious to me, to be honest. (BTW, the new "rule" completely negates your "this isnt basketball" analogy, doesnt it -- unless since enforced balancing is now a "rule", and thus a standing part of the game, you're all in favor of it now? )

Never had intended to make you feel small, and I never mentioned you at all -- sorry you took it that way. There was no personal attack involved. I'm really glad to hear that you no longer consider side switching to be an unpardonable sin, since that will both make it easier for your squad to fly together AND minimize the negative impact on everyone else with the new rules in place.

Which gets to the "you've supported HTC" comment. I dont support them uniformly -- I noted the horde risk when the Orange experiment was started -- but i DO have empathy  for them.

You're a doc, Falc...imagine what it would be like if you're every decision was hammered before it was even tried. Imagine if you wrote a prescription for a standard first line antibiotic, and patients screamed at you, questioned your competence and assigned malicious motives if that Rx didnt work. Thats what HT deals with every week, frankly from guys with your attitude.

So I figure I'll cut him slack. I DONT agree with every move, but I can see what he's aiming for and I think its a good target. He's programmed flight sims about as long as I've been a practicing doc myself, so I figure I'll treat him with the same professionalism and respect I'd want to be given. Nothing more than that, I'm no blind fanboy. Empathy and respect...a good combination, IMHO.

Like I said, its not that hard.
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

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Offline BlauK

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« Reply #275 on: December 11, 2006, 01:40:33 PM »
S! Stiletto,
extremely well thought and clearly presented argument. Many of your observations hit right on the nail.


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #276 on: December 11, 2006, 01:48:20 PM »
May I insert my own low-level protest?

I protest against people who protest that they shouldn't be told how to play the game.  The rules of ANY game restrict how you can play the game.  HTC is changing the rules.  That happens in most games, sooner or later.  There is nothing unusual about this, in any game (or in any simulation, for that matter).

Your actual complaint is that you don't want to have the rules changed from what they were before.  That's a perfectly valid point of view. And it has the added benefit of deleting all of the "I am a victim" crap that oozes out of these boards.

- oldman

Offline john9001

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« Reply #277 on: December 11, 2006, 01:50:21 PM »
the new system is working perfectly, blue is caped out at 120 so i went to orange, it was balanced, 9 in each country.

Offline Lye-El

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Re: Re: Re: Changes to come.
« Reply #278 on: December 11, 2006, 02:09:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BlauK
EXCELLENT IDEA, Tilt!

Allowing people to sign up as volunteers being switched to another country on demand and rewarding them for being mercenaries :aok :aok :aok

Carrots always work better than sticks!


Mercenaries. Their own icons. Extra incentives for becoming mercenaries. I like it! :aok


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs

Offline Stiletto

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Dumping in the New System
« Reply #279 on: December 11, 2006, 02:10:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
the new system is working perfectly, blue is caped out at 120 so i went to orange, it was balanced, 9 in each country.


Question about how this new system works:

If you're in an arena for your squad ops and you dump, when you re-log, are you going to run the risk of having to switch countries because somebody else joined the arena while you were rebooting? Or is there a "grace period" built in?

Offline Excaliber

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Re: Would appreciate an Answer
« Reply #280 on: December 11, 2006, 02:24:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4deck
My only Question to HITECH is...

Why cant we have One Areana untouched, with a cap of say 600, No rules or regs, No ENY, with Only BIG Maps, and do whatever you want to the other areans.??

This is not for anyone else to answer, but the developing team. Thanx in advance.


They cant do that because everyone would be in that arena...no one left to participate in the grand experiment.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #281 on: December 11, 2006, 03:05:43 PM »
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
I think the biggest problem we have is the lack of understanding of exactly what the problem is!

HT obviously sees a problem and is going about solving it by splitting the arenas, the "orange experiment", and now the latest ENY adjustments.  From everything I've read of what he as said, there are two problems that need to be solved:

1.  Too many players in a single arena which creates a "slum" effect (hordes, milkruns, etc).
2.  Imbalance between the countries.

From everything I've read of the response from the community, my conclusion is that the majority of players are concerned with staying together with their squads.

I would love to see us begin to reach consensus as to what we are trying to solve.  When I read things like "why not put things back the way they were?" then it becomes clear to me that we are not understanding the problem or that maybe the problem is not what we think it is.  I worry sometimes that HT is listening to particular groups of players and getting an understanding of the "problem" that not neccessarily reality but then realize that he is a pretty sharp guy and should be able to see through that sort of thing.

Compound all of this with the natural tendency (especially among men) to resist change.

If someone would clarify exactly what problem we are trying to solve I would appreciate it.

Have a great day!


Nice post ... What I think you are missing is ...

"From everything I've read of the response from the community, my conclusion is that the majority of players are concerned with staying together with their squads."

The ones screaming the loudest are the squads, who do want to stay together, but under no circumstances do they want to switch to another country ... there ya have it ... in a nutshell. It's the "loyalty to a chess piece" that is the real bone of contention here.

Guppy has pointed out in many post, along with others who are members of other squads (including the BOPs) that for some strange reason ... none of the changes has really put a damper on their squad operations.

One thing you might not know ... you can create a squad of 1 ... you can create a squad and be the only person in it ... so the "let the lonewolfs balance first" ... can be circumvented very easily.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline SlapShot

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Re: Would appreciate an Answer
« Reply #282 on: December 11, 2006, 03:08:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4deck
My only Question to HITECH is...

Why cant we have One Areana untouched, with a cap of say 600, No rules or regs, No ENY, with Only BIG Maps, and do whatever you want to the other areans.??

This is not for anyone else to answer, but the developing team. Thanx in advance.


HT and Pyro already answered this question ... do a search.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Dumping in the New System
« Reply #283 on: December 11, 2006, 03:08:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stiletto
Question about how this new system works:

If you're in an arena for your squad ops and you dump, when you re-log, are you going to run the risk of having to switch countries because somebody else joined the arena while you were rebooting? Or is there a "grace period" built in?


I have the same question.  It's a bummer if you get disco'd and can't get back the the fight(s) you were in.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline plank

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« Reply #284 on: December 11, 2006, 03:27:47 PM »
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Originally posted by Grits
LIES! ALL LIES!!

PS: Plank, did you hear about Rocky Road ice cream?


Yes, zee almonds!

Walnuts be damned!