Author Topic: Range Icons. Do we need 'em?  (Read 1774 times)

Offline NineZ

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2000, 09:31:00 AM »
Get rid of em!  

No distance markers might cut down on some of the sniper shots utilizing zoom, that have been taking place.  

Heck, while we are at it, lets get rid of zoom, except in bomb sites.

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[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 05-14-2000).]

Offline Wardog

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2000, 09:58:00 AM »
Agreed Hang..

As we dont even pull trigger on taget till bout 250 out( the guys who fly .50s) this suits me. But i think the guys who fly cannons and let loose at 1.2 may have something else to say about it  


Offline Vermillion

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2000, 10:22:00 AM »
Do we need them?

Yes

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Vermillion
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[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-14-2000).]

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2000, 10:32:00 AM »
I'm dubious that removing icon range is the panacea everyone thinks it will be as far as cannon gunnery goes.  I flew the F4U-1C consistently for the first time last night and took almost all of my shots at 300 yards or under, just as I try to do in the Spit.  Sad to say, the guns remain just as insanely deadly in that situation as they do at long range.  Removing range icons might prevent the long range sniping, but we'll find that the Hog's plasma cannons still play a major role in outcomes.

Really, flying without icons is just a practice issue.  After awhile, you get used to the plane sizes and can tell the direction and possible speed of the enemy.  Eventually this negates the gunnery issue, though it does make overall SA significantly more difficult.

-- Todd/DMF

Offline Hangtime

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2000, 12:45:00 PM »
Ahhhh... a constantly recurring theme; the icon vs depth perception.

I'm not suggesting removing the icon. I'm suggesting removing range data from the icon display.

This would in NO way effect depth perception; motion tracking or periphial view. An Icon would still be there. Juding distance becomes dependent on relative size; and this can be determined with a gunsight.

"Go in close; and when you think you are too close; go in closer"
---Maj Tommy McGuire, USAAF, 38 Kills WWII

Removing range data would add BACK into the sim the SKILL required to evaluate and adjust trajectory for a shot. A conventional gunsight can be set up to 'box'the wingspan of an a/c to determine range appropriate for gunnery.

"..as his plane filled my gunsight I pressed the tit. The results were incredible. No sooner did I feel the plane shudder as the machine guns went off, than a huge flame engulfed the 109, followed immediately by a black cloud of debris.."
----John Godfrey "The Look of Eagles"

Certainly; it would be more difficult to assess WHEN to shoot, how long to hold that shot; but that's the point.

"No guts; No glory. If you're going to shoot him down, you have to get in there and mix it up with him"
--- 'Boots' Blesse; USAF, 10 kills, Korea

Consider also the defenders dillema. You want to put a sembalance of 'fear' or or mortality into the sim?? Bingo.

"Waiting for the proper moment to begin my evasion tactics was agonizing"
---- Duke Cunningham; Americas last Ace.

How about HO's.. Oh my; wouldn't THIS screw the pooch for all those HO dweebs??  

"..he saw me immediatly and rolled out of his turn towards me so that a HO attack became inevitable. I peered thru the reflector sight at the rapidly closing 109. We opened fire together, and immediatly a hail of lead thudded into my Spitfire. One moment the Messerschmidt was a clearly defined shape, it's wingspan nicely enclosed within the circle of my reflector sight, and the next it was on top of me, a terrifying blur which blotted out the sky ahead. Then we hit."
---- Alan Deere, RAF, 22.5 kills WWII

And finally.. how about those buffs?? Consider the effect this would have on attacking and defending a buff. Without range icons, that gunner is gonna have a significantly more difficult job of determining when to shoot... his ammo is not infinite!

In short; RANGE was always subjective for WWII pilots. I don't think that removing RANGE data will lessen the imersion factor; detract from realisim or cripple game play. In fact; I think it will significantly improve game play and force the pilot to be a larger part of the attack equation.

"I gained experience with every plane shot down, and was now able to fire in a calm, deliberate manner. Distance and deflection were carefully judged before firing. This is not something that comes by accident; but only by experience..."
----John Godfrey, USAAF 16.33 kills, WWII

If this sim is to be the standard by which the others of its genere is judged, should  not it's superb weapon, ballistics and aircraft modeling be balanced by realistic gunsights, ranging and gunnery paramaters?

"We ALWAYS underestimated our range."
--- Air Marshall Johnnie Johnston, RAF

Lets re-introduce the concept of the pilot making the range decison; not the system.

"I had no system of shooting as such. It is definitly more in the feeling side of things that these skills develop. I was at the front 5 and a half years, and you just get a feeling for the right amount of lead"
-- General Guenther Rall, LW, 275 Kills WWII

Hang

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Offline jr

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2000, 01:20:00 PM »
We probably don't have enough folks but I would like to see 2 MA's one with training wheels and one without. No auto-takeoff no range counters etc....
The relaxed realism would be a good place to learn.

Offline JoeMud

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2000, 02:17:00 PM »
Well it seems like we kicking dead horse..but in the past if we kicked it enouph it came to life...what ever that means

Yeah lose the range icons or reduce them down to 2k or less

Offline Citabria

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2000, 02:24:00 PM »
the worst part is those who prefer not to look at them don't even have the OPTION to turn them off
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline MarkVZ

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
 
Quote
And finally.. how about those buffs?? Consider the effect this would have on attacking and defending a buff. Without range icons, that gunner is gonna have a significantly more difficult job of determining when to shoot... his ammo is not infinite!

Hang, last night ammo hosted a h2h game, the catch:  no icons whatsoever.  I actually found that my lethality improved while gunning from a buff.  The cause?  Probably the fact that I knew *exactly* where to aim instead of having a 30-foot icon masking my target.  Icon-less fighting is the coolest thing I've done in AH.  You can actually dive for the deck and extend without your icon giving you away.  Vulching is a tough business because it's hard to spot a con rolling on the runway.
No range icons would make things better in my opinion, but I'm not the only one playing.  It may drive away more people than it's worth, since it is a crutch for most players.  I guess you have to think about what is good for the game as a whole instead of individual preferences.

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Offline Citabria

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2000, 03:35:00 PM »
but why not give us the option to turn off enemy icons altogether?

& just turn off enemy range

& just turn off enemy plane type

& just turn off both on enemy leaving only the country ID


options options options

Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Sparks

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2000, 04:57:00 PM »
I flew with av8r and Lephturn in the TA with no icons today to find out what it is like and it was the most radical difference I have seen so far. I hadn't realised how much I relied on the icon info and I seriously sucked for several.  However after a time I began to feel my SA improving and I started to really enjoy it.
Two things came into my mind though:-
1. In the bigger enviroment of the MA how would you find the enemy and identify them as enemy?
2. Camouflage schemes come into their own - av8r's spit disappeared against the ground but Lister's P51 shone like a beacon - opens a whole new paint schemes can of worms.

I think my vote now goes with freind/foe icons only which disappear at 4 k

Offline bloom25

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2000, 06:04:00 PM »
I have an idea that's kind of a compromise between extremes.  What if the icons range indicator only had a couple states.  For example, it could say <3k, <2k, and <1k.  Another idea is maybe a color indicator for range using the above cutoffs.  For example, blue bar under icon = <3k, yellow = <2k, and red = <1k.  In addition the only icon you get above 3k range is a the country ID.  Once you get below 3k you get the full icon, but with the range icon limitations I described above.  IMO this is slighly more realistic, and it doesn't really penalize those who don't have 19" monitors.  (Myself included: 14" and 15" on my computers.   ) I too have participated in a couple no icon fights in the TA, and it was a blast for me.  For others though, they HATED it.  There needs to be a happy balance between realism and gameplay logistics.  (IE Limitations on computer monitor resolution, monitor size, etc.)

For tanks, lets just have a country icon (ie no range) that only appears once you get under 2.5k or so.  Low flying aircraft should also get a similar form of protection.  Maybe you only get the <1k range indicator when you get real close.

How does this sound?

 

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Offline wolf37

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2000, 08:00:00 PM »
hiya hangtime:

hey it makes no differance to me, i can die just as easy with or with out icons.
so what ever we end up with is what i will fly with.

blues skies all

wolf37
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Offline Maniac

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2000, 02:06:00 AM »
An option is to have range markers up to d5 and then they dissapear and only the plane type icon shows...

Thats an good compromise i think.



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Offline popeye

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Range Icons. Do we need 'em?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2000, 02:16:00 AM »
Seems to me that range icons are way more important for determining rate of closure, than for gunnery, and I am not convinced that our 2D view allows us a "real" sense of rate of closure without them.

However, I fully support Citabria's request to allow players the option of turning on or off each icon function independently.

In any case, I would like individual players to have full control of icon colors, both brightness and hue, so that everyone can adjust icons for optimum visibility (or otherwise).

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