Author Topic: Hey Lazs, an interesting read  (Read 830 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2006, 01:21:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
The bow didn't dominate the armor plated knight on the battle field, the gun did.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

Offline Toad

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2006, 01:29:47 PM »
Thrawn, Laser is NEVER wrong.

You have noticed that by now?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vudak

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2006, 01:30:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt


You beat me to it :mad:
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Offline lasersailor184

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2006, 01:50:07 PM »
Interesting read Thrawn, doesn't really prove much though.


Though it is funny as to how so many people are making claims when they know very little about it.

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I understand that 30.06 is a more powerfull than 308 winchester,


Marginally more powerful.

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but 308 win is a more accurate cartridge.


It's wrong to generally claim that one cartridge is more accurate then another.  Each cartridge's accuraccy is based off of construction tolerances.  

I can throw together a batch of ****ty 308's and a batch of immaculate .30-06's, that doesn't mean that 30-06's are more accurate then 308's.

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I remember reading that the m1 in 30.06 is marginally less accurate than m14 in 7.62nato,


It is my experience that the M14 with milsurp ammo is a touch more accurate then the Garand is with milsurp ammo.  The accuraccy difference would only be noticeable at ranges of greater then 400 yards.  

But like I said before, accuraccy is based off of how much money you want to put into your ammo.  A self loader can put 5 rounds in a quarter at 200 rounds with either gun.  But they spend a lot of time and money perfecting the loadings for each round

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Both cartridges are good deer and elk rounds, but too powerfull for combat shooting. If combat was still what it was in wwI when soldiers did most of their shooting stationary, they would be great, but it isn't.


Disagree.  But now we are broaching the topic of opinions.  I think the largest mistake the american military ever made was switching from .308/.30-06 to .223 .  But I've gotten into page long discussions as to why, don't feel like doing that again here.

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I also know that, and this is difficult for people to believe, DOD tests showed that field grade m16s shot tighter groups than field grade m14s.


Which field grade m16's?  There were many different versions.  The AR-15 would have, considering it was manufactured with tighter tolerances and better materials then the field grade M14.  But the first couple versions of the M16 would not have shot tighter groups.  It wasn't until the mid-to late 80's that the M16 finally reached a quality level equal to that of the M14, which was coming up on 40 years old.  After 25 years and the direct cause of thousands of deaths, the M16 was finally a suitable equal (minus 5.56 vs. .308 arguments) to the M14.
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Offline vorticon

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2006, 06:35:13 PM »
lasersailor.



'There is also possibly references to defensive use of cannon or more likely psychological gunpowder use from tubes in mid-13th century Moorish Spain. Hand cannon or hand cannon-like devices were reported to be employed against the Mongols in 1260 and 1304, in an unattributed manuscript probably written by Shams al-Din Muhammad al-Ansari al-Dimashqi, which also depicts fire arrows and long-handled handguns. By 1340, light cannon are widespread enough in the Islamic world to end up in military inventories."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon#Medieval_Use_in_Europe_and_the_Middle_east

"Conventional wisdom says that plate armour faded away on the battlefield soon after firearms were introduced. This is very much not the case. Crude cannons were being used before plate armour became the norm. Soon, in the 1400s a small, mobile "hand cannon" was being used by horsemen. Improved crossbows, and the first pistols and pre-musket long arms, began to take a heavy toll on the mail clad, and partially plated knights and foot soldiers. Rather than dooming the use of body armour, the threat of small firearms intensified the use and further refinement of plate armour. There was a 150 year period in which more and better metallurgically advanced steel armour was being used, precisely because of the danger posed by the gun."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armour#Plate_armour.2C_1400_-_1620

"Armour was not confined to the Middle Ages, and in fact was widely used by all armies until the end of the 17th century, for both foot and mounted troops. Leg protection was the first part to go, replaced by tall leather boots. By the early part of the 18th century, only field marshals and royalty remained in full armour on the battlefield, as they were tempting targets for rifled musket fire. However, cavalry units continued to use front and back plates, and either helmets or "secrets", a steel protection they wore under a floppy hat"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

there were still gaps in the armour that a well placed arrow would go through...problem with bowmen is it takes to long to train them, and they were just as ineffective against armour as the gun...

they still:

fired faster
more accuratly
were lighter
cost less to make a bow
fired a whole lot quieter
didnt randomly explode
worked in the rain

Offline lasersailor184

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2006, 06:47:32 PM »
I was wrong.
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Offline Thrawn

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2006, 07:24:03 PM »
You just entered a very small, very elite club on this BBS.

Offline lasersailor184

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2006, 07:26:13 PM »
5500+ posts?
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Offline Thrawn

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2006, 08:00:52 PM »
I could probably count the number of people on this board with the balls to admit they were wrong on one...possibly two hands.

Offline lazs2

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2006, 08:49:57 AM »
dago... I am not argueing with the "experts".    I am argueing with your interpretation of what they are saying.

I think that you will find that most agree that a gas system that uses gas after the bullet leaves the muzzle is inherently more accurate than one that uses some of the gas while the bullet is still in the rifling.    

I don't think you will find any expert to say that the ought six is not more powerful than the .308

The Garand worked for millions.. the M14 was dropped from service very quickly.  It is now relegated to games and special purpose military use and.. even then... it is being phased out.

When you (properly) convert the Garand to the less powerful .308 it is more accurate than the M14.   the M14 can be made to be extremely accurate and there really is no point in messing around with the old Garand for these games.   New M14/M1a's are being manufactured.. the Garand is more difficult to make.   The springfield newly made Garands are inferior with cast recievers and have even proven to be dangerous in the past.   The lower pressure, shorter reciever M1a is not as picky about strength of the reciever and will work with cast pieces just fine.

lazs

Offline indy007

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2006, 09:16:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
, then the bow and arrow over the musket.   ;)


Kinetic Energy. An arrow, being a much heavier grain than a bullet (and nasty looking arrowheads), can easily penetrate level III body armor. A true musket... I'm not sure if it could or not. I'm not keen on finding out.

Offline lasersailor184

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2006, 09:21:32 AM »
Quote
the M14 was dropped from service very quickly. It is now relegated to games and special purpose military use and.. even then... it is being phased out.


Disagree.  With the new desert environment and sometimes engagements at longer ranges, it's being reissued.
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Offline Dago

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2006, 04:21:08 PM »
The M14 was dropped from service because it was replaced by the M16 firing the .223, and it was the move to .223 more than anything that drove the M14 from standard issue.  

Remember, it was the M14 the drove the M1 Garand out of service.

The M14 is being issued in larger numbers now, and infantry platoons get at least 2.  Can't say I have heard of any M1 Garands being issued now.   Hmmm, wonder why, don't they know what Lazs knows?
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Offline lazs2

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2006, 08:35:11 AM »
I can't imagine that they would issue a battle rifle in ought six that hasn't been made in 50 years when they have a huge stock of M14's laying around that they can't even sell.

You won't be able to buy an m14 from our government... they will languish in armories around the country for even more decades untill they are finally all destroyed.

If they had a more modern battle riffle in .308 they would be issueing it..  as it is.. they are even using civilian bolt action rifles.   The .223 was not the panacea that they all thought it would be.   The M14 and it's deficiencies probly did more to bring on the .223 than anything... it was a bad idea to make a full auto Garand.

lazs

Offline lasersailor184

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Hey Lazs, an interesting read
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2006, 09:05:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I can't imagine that they would issue a battle rifle in ought six that hasn't been made in 50 years when they have a huge stock of M14's laying around that they can't even sell.

You won't be able to buy an m14 from our government... they will languish in armories around the country for even more decades untill they are finally all destroyed.

If they had a more modern battle riffle in .308 they would be issueing it..  as it is.. they are even using civilian bolt action rifles.   The .223 was not the panacea that they all thought it would be.   The M14 and it's deficiencies probly did more to bring on the .223 than anything... it was a bad idea to make a full auto Garand.

lazs


First, was had millions of m14's come back from lend lease in the mid 90's.  We should have started selling them much like the garands, but instead Clinton just started having them destroyed.


Next, there weren't any deficiencies with the M14, that didn't even come into play when they were replacing it.  They were basing the replacements off of a study the army did as to which cartridge would make a better soldier.  It had nothing to do with the gun, the study did.  I still think the grandchildren of those who did the study should be found and beaten to punish and tarnish the family name for actually publishing the studies.
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